Off Topic UK / EU Future

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Toby said:
So they will do something the people don't want? If the result was 52-48 to stay, your lot would never have shut up about it. We had a referendum when we joined, yet you lot never let go and kept up moaning for 20+ years.

With the recent ECJ decision that we can reverse Article 50 we may not even have a Brexit at all <cool>

Let's see if you stop bringing it up then.
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The result was what the majority wanted during the designated means of deciding. The referendum is the only legitimate deciding factor.

best of 3,5 7?
 
superhorns said:
The result was what the majority wanted during the designated means of deciding. The referendum is the only legitimate deciding factor.

best of 3,5 7?
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The 2016 referendum was non-binding. And the result was too close, the wording too ambiguous, etc...Your ERG heroes have no mandate to push for a No Deal Brexit, that much is clear. So what options do you have?
 
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Toby said:
The 2016 referendum was non-binding. And the result was too close, the wording too ambiguous, etc...Your ERG heroes have no mandate to push for a No Deal Brexit, that much is clear. So what options do you have?
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The prime minister and cabinet of the day legally decided the result of the referendum would be government policy. This was well known before the vote. The default position as the process stands a no vote to May's lousy deal can only produce leaving without a deal. A PM can introduce other options although none will prolong her career much or guarantee keeping the Marx twins out of office.
 
superhorns said:
The prime minister and cabinet of the day legally decided the result of the referendum would be government policy. This was well known before the vote. The default position as the process stands a no vote to May's lousy deal can only produce leaving without a deal. A PM can introduce other options although none will prolong her career much or guarantee keeping the Marx twins out of office.
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Legally, Parliament at any point in future could reverse legislation approved by referendum, because the concept of parliamentary sovereignty means no Parliament can prevent a future Parliament from amending or repealing legislation. However, reversing legislation approved by referendum would be unprecedented.
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I thought your Brexit was all about Parliamentary sovereignty? Or is it only when it suits you?
 
Toby said:
I thought your Brexit was all about Parliamentary sovereignty? Or is it only when it suits you?
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Respecting the 2016 referendum result would be an act of parliamentary sovereignty, it overwhelmingly decided that should be the means on how the country decides.
 
What we are forgetting is that it was not Cameron who called the referendum in the first place. It was part of the Tory Manifesto of 2015, so it was their victory which caused the referendum to happen - this was based on the votes of 24.3% of the electorate and 36.7% of the votes cast. This means that 63.1% voted for parties not offering a referendum. So much for it all being the 'Will of the people'. With a PR system none of this would have happened. Only under our present system is it possible for a small group of desparadoes to get this far through infiltrating one of our biggest parties and holding the whole country to ransome. The same is true in the past - with PR we would have had no Iraq war, and Thatcher would not have been able to rip the heart out of British industry in the 80s. All of these were based on parties proclaiming majorities based on a minority of the votes cast - and in all cases we have a majority scratching their heads saying 'I didn't vote for this'. In all cases the majority of the people are actually against the government in power - so there can never be a case of 'The Will of the People' in the UK. We just have an alternating one party state, with very little counterbalancing because we are, in comparison to other EU countries, very centralized on the powers of Westminster. A repeat of what has happened in the UK. would be impossible in any other EU country because of their electoral systems. Whether we are in or out of the EU. or half in half out, the need is there to democratize our political system, and to decentralize away from Westminster - because this whole Brexit process, whatever the end result, has shown up the instabilities of British democracy.
 
colognehornet said:
What we are forgetting is that it was not Cameron who called the referendum in the first place. It was part of the Tory Manifesto of 2015, so it was their victory which caused the referendum to happen - this was based on the votes of 24.3% of the electorate and 36.7% of the votes cast. This means that 63.1% voted for parties not offering a referendum. So much for it all being the 'Will of the people'. With a PR system none of this would have happened. Only under our present system is it possible for a small group of desparadoes to get this far through infiltrating one of our biggest parties and holding the whole country to ransome. The same is true in the past - with PR we would have had no Iraq war, and Thatcher would not have been able to rip the heart out of British industry in the 80s. All of these were based on parties proclaiming majorities based on a minority of the votes cast - and in all cases we have a majority scratching their heads saying 'I didn't vote for this'. In all cases the majority of the people are actually against the government in power - so there can never be a case of 'The Will of the People' in the UK. We just have an alternating one party state, with very little counterbalancing because we are, in comparison to other EU countries, very centralized on the powers of Westminster. A repeat of what has happened in the UK. would be impossible in any other EU country because of their electoral systems. Whether we are in or out of the EU. or half in half out, the need is there to democratize our political system, and to decentralize away from Westminster - because this whole Brexit process, whatever the end result, has shown up the instabilities of British democracy.
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Everybody knew the electoral rules when the public decided to back the Tories manifesto including a vote on EU membership. You may not like the FPTP process but it suits the UK public, they clearly did not like the alternative offered recently.


Has not the PR system you prefer allowed many far right representatives a platform in German parliaments? We have none in ours.
 
colognehornet said:
What we are forgetting is that it was not Cameron who called the referendum in the first place. It was part of the Tory Manifesto of 2015, so it was their victory which caused the referendum to happen - this was based on the votes of 24.3% of the electorate and 36.7% of the votes cast. This means that 63.1% voted for parties not offering a referendum. So much for it all being the 'Will of the people'. With a PR system none of this would have happened. Only under our present system is it possible for a small group of desparadoes to get this far through infiltrating one of our biggest parties and holding the whole country to ransome. The same is true in the past - with PR we would have had no Iraq war, and Thatcher would not have been able to rip the heart out of British industry in the 80s. All of these were based on parties proclaiming majorities based on a minority of the votes cast - and in all cases we have a majority scratching their heads saying 'I didn't vote for this'. In all cases the majority of the people are actually against the government in power - so there can never be a case of 'The Will of the People' in the UK. We just have an alternating one party state, with very little counterbalancing because we are, in comparison to other EU countries, very centralized on the powers of Westminster. A repeat of what has happened in the UK. would be impossible in any other EU country because of their electoral systems. Whether we are in or out of the EU. or half in half out, the need is there to democratize our political system, and to decentralize away from Westminster - because this whole Brexit process, whatever the end result, has shown up the instabilities of British democracy.
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Recent events in Europe has shown the UK to be the most politically stable country compared to others.
 
superhorns said:
Everybody knew the electoral rules when the public decided to back the Tories manifesto including a vote on EU membership. You may not like the FPTP process but it suits the UK public, they clearly did not like the alternative offered recently.


Has not the PR system you prefer allowed many far right representatives a platform in German parliaments? We have none in ours.
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How do you know that FPTP suits the UK. public ? I agree that a referendum was held on the subject but the form of PR offered was deliberately made so unnecessarily complicated that the elctorate did not understand what was offered - the whole thing was a fudge. PR is anything but complicated. As regards the AfD in Germany they represent a broad span of opinion, and whilst there are some obnoxious people sitting in the Bundestag they are not confined to this party. The difference to Britain is that such a motley crew are not able to exert any real infuence in Parliament - they are just 'Bums on seats' for a while. The reason for this lack of influence is that because of the consensus building endemic to PR they can be 'frozen out' in a way not possible in the UK. Nigel Farage is a supporter of the AfD - actually took part in their election campaign, so we can say that their middle is no further right than he is. Are you suggesting that this is further right than the right wing of the Tory Party ? Whilst you have the nutty elements of the Tory right wing in the mix you have no room left for another far right wing party.

Just remember - when you talk about the 'Will of the People', that, according to this principle, we would never have had a Tory majority in Westminster.
 
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colognehornet said:
How do you know that FPTP suits the UK. public ? I agree that a referendum was held on the subject but the form of PR offered was deliberately made so unnecessarily complicated that the elctorate did not understand what was offered - the whole thing was a fudge. PR is anything but complicated. As regards the AfD in Germany they represent a broad span of opinion, and whilst there are some obnoxious people sitting in the Bundestag they are not confined to this party. The difference to Britain is that such a motley crew are not able to exert any real infuence in Parliament - they are just 'Bums on seats' for a while. The reason for this lack of influence is that because of the consensus building endemic to PR they can be 'frozen out' in a way not possible in the UK. Nigel Farage is a supporter of the AfD - actually took part in their election campaign, so we can say that their middle is no further right than he is. Are you suggesting that this is further right than the right wing of the Tory Party ? Whilst you have the nutty elements of the Tory right wing in the mix you have no room left for another far right wing party.

Just remember - when you talk about the 'Will of the People', that, according to this principle, we would never have had a Tory majority in Westminster.
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FPTP suits the UK public because there is absolutely no demand for change apart from the Greens and Lib Dems that attract very little electoral support. You quote Farage but he is not sitting in parliament. He has no history of supporting Nazi ideas like some in the AfD.

The extreme right wing has gained huge support in many EU countries, France's hugely popular right wing party is tipped to be their largest group in the forthcoming European elections. The political make up of many EU countries are now making the UK a bastion of moderate stable politics envied by the rest of Europe.
 
After the silly scaremongering last week by Mark Carney he is now admitting his doomsday scenario has a low probability. This comes after the previous Bank of England chief, Lord King savaged May's deal and brands Carney's predictions as implausible and dubious.
 
superhorns said:
FPTP suits the UK public because there is absolutely no demand for change apart from the Greens and Lib Dems that attract very little electoral support. You quote Farage but he is not sitting in parliament. He has no history of supporting Nazi ideas like some in the AfD.

The extreme right wing has gained huge support in many EU countries, France's hugely popular right wing party is tipped to be their largest group in the forthcoming European elections. The political make up of many EU countries are now making the UK a bastion of moderate stable politics envied by the rest of Europe.
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So Corbyn meets up with Palestinians and automatically becomes an antisemite. Yet Farage does speeches at a neo-Nazi rally but he's a decent chap?
 
Toby said:
So Corbyn meets up with Palestinians and automatically becomes an antisemite. Yet Farage does speeches at a neo-Nazi rally but he's a decent chap?
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Many of Corbyn's colleagues in the Labour Party describe him as a antisemite. I think they are spot on.
 
yorkshirehornet said:
More of the hypocrisy of those who control the media..... true eh...control media and you control the masses... and the money....
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At least the Daily Heil have changed their tune a bit...But yep, I remember reading an article about it a few years ago, there was a huge push by dodgy right-wing types to buy up media/TV outlets, all this so they can become even richer.

The right won't be happy until we go back to a feudal-type system, with those at the top on their yachts whilst the poor struggle to survive to keep them in their lives of luxury. The future does not look like a happy place...
 
superhorns said:
Many of Corbyn's colleagues in the Labour Party describe him as a antisemite. I think they are spot on.
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That's just the Blairites desperately trying to attack him. If the Tories hadn't pushed their centre as far right as is socially acceptable they'd all have joined them by now. They were never Labour or representative of the working class in this country.
 
Toby said:
That's just the Blairites desperately trying to attack him. If the Tories hadn't pushed their centre as far right as is socially acceptable they'd all have joined them by now. They were never Labour or representative of the working class in this country.
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So far the only type of Labour politician the public trusts. If they were still in charge I would expect the LP to be well ahead in the polls.
 
superhorns said:
So far the only type of Labour politician the public trusts. If they were still in charge I would expect the LP to be well ahead in the polls.
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If the news wasn't filled with outright lies about Corbyn for the last few years then they would be.
 
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