Off Topic UK / EU Future

[superhorns]

The EU is continuously looking for trade deals around the world. And looking for friends to help it defend its borders. Whatever the agenda the UK is a marketplace of 65 million people who are better off than the average member of the EU. That is a fact that no one can deny. And our military power, like it or nor, for it or not, is superior to anything any EU country could offer.

As for type of deal, it could be any type of deal if both sides see benefit. We cannot predict tomorrow with any degree of accuracy, let alone in 2 or 3 years time. So the type of deal would reflect those future times. I believe looking at current arrangements has very limited benefit.

I will admit that my observations are that those who want Brexit are less clear on their objectives and are happy to promote possibilities as facts. But the stayers must appreciate that the EU will not be what it was in 2015, in 2025.

What cannot be argued against is there is much more open hostility towards Brussels from member states. They question the methods and policies of the Eurocrats like never before, I expect this to intensify over the next few years especially after a successful Brexit in which the wheels failed to come off for the UK.

 

[kchorn]

What cannot be argued against is there is much more open hostility towards Brussels from member states. They question the methods and policies of the Eurocrats like never before,

That is true. I saw a map of nationalist gains in EU countries. Their growth in a wide number of countries is scary.

I expect this to intensify over the next few years especially after a successful Brexit in which the wheels failed to come off for the UK.

Nice speculation that is unlkely to ever be proved one way or the other. But I think this second point illustrates why I find most internet debates meaningless. Both sides argue based on their belief that they know the future.

I'd like to see more debate on specific points and why one strategy may offer less or more risk. Not just rants.

OK I'll get my coat

 

[colognehornet]

That is true. I saw a map of nationalist gains in EU countries. Their growth in a wide number of countries is scary.



Nice speculation that is unlkely to ever be proved one way or the other. But I think this second point illustrates why I find most internet debates meaningless. Both sides argue based on their belief that they know the future.

I'd like to see more debate on specific points and why one strategy may offer less or more risk. Not just rants.

OK I'll get my coat

There is an alarming trend towards nationalist parties Worldwide KC. not just in the EU. Though not all of them are right wing and hostile to 'outsiders' - I would not describe the Catalan nationalists in this way. More I think there is a Worldwide fear of 'globalization' and a feeling of powerlessness in relation to it - people no longer know who is controlling their lives and lash out both at politicians and immigrants as a handy scapegoat - at least they can be located.

 

[kchorn]

There is an alarming trend towards nationalist parties Worldwide KC. not just in the EU. Though not all of them are right wing and hostile to 'outsiders' - I would not describe the Catalan nationalists in this way. More I think there is a Worldwide fear of 'globalization' and a feeling of powerlessness in relation to it - people no longer know who is controlling their lives and lash out both at politicians and immigrants as a handy scapegoat - at least they can be located.

Cologne that's true but obviously if the country is part of an alliance (especially one with many members of equal power, yes, the EU has more powerful members like Germany, but no dominate power), the national uprising is destructive to the organisation.

Catalonia is certainly distinct. Interestingly the latest poll shows close to 49% for indi and 46% against. But to be fair Spain is a disaster so there are no good internal reasons to stay.

However, Spain is at last bringing tax evaders (common thieves) to court with even Franco's granddaughter being done. There is hope but don't expect Spain to contribute to anything within the next 30 years.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I will be off to Corsica next week where there is a nationalist movement, which is strongly left wing, but pro EU. They have their own political parties and when you see national election results you wonder who these small parties are who have won a seat or two in parliament. These parties are at their strongest in the south, and you will hear more of the Corsican language there than in the north. Like Ireland there is a history of violence when people thought that they were not being listened to, but more and more has been devolved to them, and the levels of violence have dropped to the occasional blowing up of the post office letter box.
Why does this movement have its roots in the south rather than the north? Looking at the economy of the north compared to the south the two departments have not received the same support from the national government until the last few years. This has been put right by giving the council for the whole island the chance to organise for all, rather than have Paris try to govern from afar.
Scotland has been given powers to run many things, but now it is creating problems for London as they realise they have different objectives and ideas about how to run their countries. You can drive people towards independence as appears to be happening in the UK, or you can try to find solutions as in Corsica.

 

[colognehornet]

I will be off to Corsica next week where there is a nationalist movement, which is strongly left wing, but pro EU. They have their own political parties and when you see national election results you wonder who these small parties are who have won a seat or two in parliament. These parties are at their strongest in the south, and you will hear more of the Corsican language there than in the north. Like Ireland there is a history of violence when people thought that they were not being listened to, but more and more has been devolved to them, and the levels of violence have dropped to the occasional blowing up of the post office letter box.
Why does this movement have its roots in the south rather than the north? Looking at the economy of the north compared to the south the two departments have not received the same support from the national government until the last few years. This has been put right by giving the council for the whole island the chance to organise for all, rather than have Paris try to govern from afar.
Scotland has been given powers to run many things, but now it is creating problems for London as they realise they have different objectives and ideas about how to run their countries. You can drive people towards independence as appears to be happening in the UK, or you can try to find solutions as in Corsica.

The nation states of Europe are not holy entities which will continue for ever Frenchie. States have come and gone throughout Europe's history - Burgundy, Savoy, you could go on and on. Borders have always changed through time yet somehow, now we have the EU. they are meant to remain static for all time ? It is astonishing how so many in the EU. champion separatism when it is at a safe distance eg. Tibet, or the breakup of the USSR, or Kurdestan yet become panic stricken when it gets closer to home such as in Catalonia. I wondered if the Spanish really had to send tanks onto the streets of Barcelona before there would be whispers of disaproval in Brussels, if then. There are many states in the EU. which could, theoretically, break up - I hasten to add that Germany is not one of them (although it would be nice to get rid of Bavaria !) because I pay my taxes to Düsseldorf and not to Berlin and because the German states even have the power to sign international agreements independently of Berlin. Those countries which are heavily decentralized such as Germany and Switzerland have no reason to break up. In Schleswig Holstein there is a Danish speaking minority whose political party is permanently represented both in the state parliament in Kiel and in Berlin, regardless of their share of the vote. Actually - if nobody voted on election day (If they all forgot, or stayed in bed) then we could have a 'Danish' government. Decentralization in the extreme !

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Of course they won't remain the same for ever cologne. Alsace has swapped backwards and forwards between France and Germany, and where did Belgium come from? Surely what we are looking towards, not backwards, is to find ways in which regions or countries learn to co-operate with each other to the betterment of the populations. There are problems that are obvious to all when one part believes it is being disadvantaged compared to others. We have seen this in the referendum results when the northern counties were told that they were poor compared to the big cities and the south of England, and it was all the fault of the EU. Yet if you look at the figures of where central government expenditure goes, it is heavily weighted in favour of the south.
Catalonia is well off compared to some areas of the country, and the population there have and want to hold onto what they have. Fair enough if you cannot show as a national government that some sharing of their wealth might be good for the whole country, including them. Has there been any attempt by the UK government to share the improvements to infrastructure around the whole country? No, it is weighted in favour of the south. It is fine to devolve powers to regions, counties, or whatever to rid yourself of the need to fund normal services, but to then fail to give those regions the chance to have proper control by denying them funding only creates unrest. What we are seeing is politicians fighting their failures to bring people together with more and more extreme language, and there are plenty of examples of that around the world.

 

[superhorns]

There is a growing feeling that the EU has lost it's way with the two leading political figures, Merkel and Macron, both unpopular in their respective countries. Countries that are financially struggling within euro land are increasingly challenging the Eurocrats model, they no longer want to suffer overbearing interference with domestic issues.
Brexit is happening at a good time and will firmly encourage those currently dissatisfied to oppose Macron's plans for furthe EU intergration.

 

[superhorns]

It is most helpful that Dominic Raab has clearly stated that the ransom will not be paid in the event of a no deal. I agree that a deal will eventually be done but maybe not until after we leave the sinking ship.

The far left wing scumbags targeting Rees Mogg's family have managed to greatly increase the empathy felt by the public towards him, well done guys.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

All very strange what is happening at present. The ERG have called off their plans to remove May, and withdrawn the 140 page plan they were to present as an alternative to the Chequers proposals. Now we see that the Daily Mail has branded Mogg, Johnson etc as traitors.

“The perception grows that Conservatives are too busy fighting each other to attend to the issues that affect millions – such as the surge in violent crime, recurrent train delays, long waits for GP appointments or the near impossibility of home ownership for most young families.

“What possible good can Tory Brexiteers hope to serve, at this hugely sensitive moment in the talks, by wielding their daggers against her [May]? It is not as if they have the numbers to bring her down. Let alone do they have a coherent alternative plan for Brexit – nor, indeed, an obvious candidate to replace her, capable of uniting a divided party.”

Those who have contributed to the papers comment sections are going to be very confused. As the paper says what has been going on looks like the “latest manifestation of the party’s apparent death wish”.

 

[Deleted.......]

All very strange what is happening at present. The ERG have called off their plans to remove May, and withdrawn the 140 page plan they were to present as an alternative to the Chequers proposals. Now we see that the Daily Mail has branded Mogg, Johnson etc as traitors.

“The perception grows that Conservatives are too busy fighting each other to attend to the issues that affect millions – such as the surge in violent crime, recurrent train delays, long waits for GP appointments or the near impossibility of home ownership for most young families.

“What possible good can Tory Brexiteers hope to serve, at this hugely sensitive moment in the talks, by wielding their daggers against her [May]? It is not as if they have the numbers to bring her down. Let alone do they have a coherent alternative plan for Brexit – nor, indeed, an obvious candidate to replace her, capable of uniting a divided party.”

Those who have contributed to the papers comment sections are going to be very confused. As the paper says what has been going on looks like the “latest manifestation of the party’s apparent death wish”.

I thought that SH's inside sources had said ERG were going to publish a game changer which would make everything OK. Ah well - best leave it to the timid civil servants.

 

[superhorns]

I thought that SH's inside sources had said ERG were going to publish a game changer which would make everything OK. Ah well - best leave it to the timid civil servants.

The ERG's plan is certainly much better than May's Chequers efforts which is disliked by everyone. That one had the workings of institutionalised timid civil servants all over it which is why it failed.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The ERG's plan is certainly much better than May's Chequers efforts which is disliked by everyone. That one had the workings of institutionalised timid civil servants all over it which is why it failed.

What plan did the ERG have SH? The one that they couldn't agree on so didn't publish?

 

[superhorns]

What plan did the ERG have SH? The one that they couldn't agree on so didn't publish?

Did you not read the plan to solve the Irish Border issue, keep up.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Did you not read the plan to solve the Irish Border issue, keep up.

Do you mean the plan that had nothing new in it?

 

[superhorns]

Do you mean the plan that had nothing new in it?

It is the best alternative to having a no deal scenario in which the EU will create a hard border. Your preferred Chequers proposal has sunk without trace, you seem to be pushing for a no deal now.

 

[Tobes]

Did you not read the plan to solve the Irish Border issue, keep up.

What plan was this?

Very enlightening to see the hard line Brextremists commit to print that a border does nothing to stop illegals which sort of flies in the face for the biggest soundbite they’ve chucked around for the last 2 1/2 years, that Brexit was all about ‘taking control of our borders’.

Unless it doesn’t suit the agenda, and then we won’t bother and make out they’re completely irrelevant.

Nearly as laughable as their ‘World Trade Deal’ booklet, that looked like it’d been written in about an hour and even its title was incorrect, as there’s no such thing.

 

[superhorns]

What plan was this?

Very enlightening to see the hard line Brextremists commit to print that a border does nothing to stop illegals which sort of flies in the face for the biggest soundbite they’ve chucked around for the last 2 1/2 years, that Brexit was all about ‘taking control of our borders’.

Unless it doesn’t suit the agenda, and then we won’t bother and make out they’re completely irrelevant.

Nearly as laughable as their ‘World Trade Deal’ booklet, that looked like it’d been written in about an hour and even its title was incorrect, as there’s no such thing.

Didn't think you would turn up after the latest Silva tapping up development?

 

[Tobes]

Didn't think you would turn up after the latest Silva tapping up development?

*shrugs*

You can counter my post if you like mate

p.s. Richarlison bagging goals for Brazil must be pleasing for you to see. [HASHTAG]#bargain[/HASHTAG]

 

[superhorns]

*shrugs*

You can counter my post if you like mate

p.s. Richarlison bagging goals for Brazil must be pleasing for you to see. [HASHTAG]#bargain[/HASHTAG]

Certainly, it pushes the inflated fee up to a silly amount.