Off Topic UK / EU Future

[yorkshirehornet]

The coalition was a great success for the Tories but did not turn out so well for the LibDems whose supporters felt shafted by important decisions and compromises. So much for coalition politics and more people getting what they want. At least under FPTP if a side gets a majority it is up to them what they do.
Either way - both are democratic and it is nonsense to suggest otherwise. The fact is democracy does not always give you the government you would like. That is called life.

Life also is a lot of things and for many people politics a la UK version is not very gratifying which is why millions do not vote.

That is part of why UK politics imo do not work as millions do not vote. Coupled with this party system which cares little for common ground, consensus etc.

Perhaps a system where we all had to vote and one in which the elected were more representative of a wide range of views would be a step in a better direction

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[oldfrenchhorn]

Merkel's problems are with her own party not with the SPD.

I don't fully understand the internal problems for Merkel, but I do know that Belgium carried on as normal while they sought a stable government. Surely it is not a case of having an elected government so much as a government that functions. No one would suggest surely that the UK government is functioning in a reasonable way, with the internal disputes going on within the cabinet and the party. I used to believe that FPTP was the best system, but having seen the Con-Lib coalition at work changed my mind. The worst excess of one party was reigned in, and we had something that felt far better than what we have now.

 

[J T Bodbo]

I agree with all this.
However can I try to argue for brexiters who seem too shy to tell us for themselves.
1 Some claim we will be better off economically as we will be free to do world trade deals. Whether or not they are correct cannot be determined absolutely. Almost all forecast and predictions suggest they are wrong.
2 We will not be compelled to take migrants. How many and from where will be our decision. Just how good that is remains to be seen - many of us did not see immigration as a problem so expect no benefit. Still if being able to set your own rules is important to you this would be e benefit even if you adopted exactly the same rules.
3 Sovereignty is cited as a beneift. Frankly I do notunderstandit as the concept is woolly and in an international world you share sovereignty when you interact with other nations in contracts.
4 We will not be bound by rulings of the ECJ. There have been few examples where we have "suffered" from ECJ rulings but if it bothers you then have the ECJ have less say over our affairs could be called a benefit. Given that international affairs will always need an independent "higher court" I am not sure how we will gain from this.
I struggle to even think of anything else and frankly do not personally see any benefit in those 4 points - but clearly some do.

On your comparison with Chamberlain I am inclined to agree. If Parliament thought we were acting in a way that harmed the UK then I do not see how it would not be legitimate to halt the process and say we are not doing it. Constitutionally it wold cause an uproar but who cares if it stops the country committing suicide.

Thanks-kind of what I suspect. If no ‘Brexiteer’ can outline the benefits, one wonders what they voted for.
In passing everyone whines interested in the sovereignty/ ecj elements should read ‘on fantasy island’ by Conor Gearty.

 

[superhorns]

Merkel's problems are with her own party not with the SPD.

Is she not struggling to maintain support from Seehofer's CSU who are demanding tougher rules on migration?

 

[colognehornet]

Is she not struggling to maintain support from Seehofer's CSU who are demanding tougher rules on migration?

They go into elections as the CDU/CSU - the CSU is the Bavarian wing of the CDU. A complicated relationship I know - the CDU do not stand in Bavaria. It's a little bit like the relationship between the English and Scottish Conservative Parties - so, essentially one party.

 

[superhorns]

Life also is a lot of things and for many people politics a la UK version is not very gratifying which is why millions do not vote.

That is part of why UK politics imo do not work as millions do not vote. Coupled with this party system which cares little for common ground, consensus etc.

Perhaps a system where we all had to vote and one in which the elected were more representative of a wide range of views would be a step in a better direction

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The UK had record numbers voting in the EU referendum.

Since 2001 levels of turnouts at general elections have consistently grown. The lowest points of apathy being within Blair's reign. The 2017 level was not far off some in the 70s & 80s so no noticeable lack of interest in UK politics. The heyday was the 50s & early 60s.

 

[superhorns]

They go into elections as the CDU/CSU - the CSU is the Bavarian wing of the CDU. A complicated relationship I know - the CDU do not stand in Bavaria. It's a little bit like the relationship between the English and Scottish Conservative Parties - so, essentially one party.

The CSU's immigration policy is very different from CDU. Are they being dragged to the right by the rising support for AfD?

 

[colognehornet]

The CSU's immigration policy is very different from CDU. Are they being dragged to the right by the rising support for AfD?

The CSU has always been a little bit right of the mainstream Union with the CDU - just as you have wings of the Conservative Party. This is reinforced by Seehofer who is little more than a power grabber. I do not believe they are being dragged anywhere against their will. It is high time that the CDU broke its connections and stood in Bavaria on its own platform. If they do break the Union then a coalition would be possible alone with the SPD and the Greens. I know that many Conservatives in Bavaria would also welcome the chance to vote CDU.

 

[superhorns]

The UK had record numbers voting in the EU referendum.

Since 2001 levels of turnouts at general elections have consistently grown. The lowest points of apathy being within Blair's reign. The 2017 level was not far off some in the 70s & 80s so no noticeable lack of interest in UK politics. The heyday was the 50s & early 60s.

added stats

2017 French parliamentary election turnout 42.64%
2017 UK parliamentary election turnout 68.93%

I don't think the UK has much of a problem with political apathy. I think lack of interest amongst the young keep the average down.

 

[superhorns]

The CSU has always been a little bit right of the mainstream Union with the CDU - just as you have wings of the Conservative Party. This is reinforced by Seehofer who is little more than a power grabber. I do not believe they are being dragged anywhere against their will. It is high time that the CDU broke its connections and stood in Bavaria on its own platform. If they do break the Union then a coalition would be possible alone with the SPD and the Greens. I know that many Conservatives in Bavaria would also welcome the chance to vote CDU.

Merkel only has herself to blame for the rise of the far right, not only in Germany but right across the EU.

 

[colognehornet]

Merkel only has herself to blame for the rise of the far right, not only in Germany but right across the EU.

I do not know how often you have said this SH. Certainly more often than I have mentioned party membership - I can only reply in the same way that I have before, and, quite frankly, it is getting boring.

 

[superhorns]

I do not know how often you have said this SH. Certainly more often than I have mentioned party membership - I can only reply in the same way that I have before, and, quite frankly, it is getting boring.

I can't believe it is more boring than your 'party membership' noooooooooooooooo!

I will try and get treatment quickly.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

added stats

2017 French parliamentary election turnout 42.64%
2017 UK parliamentary election turnout 68.93%

I don't think the UK has much of a problem with political apathy. I think lack of interest amongst the young keep the average down.

We have been round this again..... over 30% of the people of UK are alienated from the political process etc etc

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The business secretary has said today that it might be necessary to have a transition period beyond 2020 because things might not be ready by even then. This would create problems in many ways, but he says it is a case of taking facts into account. The real fact is that there is no transition deal of any length unless the government sorts out a deal with the EU.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Is reality starting to bite? For months there has been infighting about two different customs models, both of them unacceptable to the EU. If the news reports are correct then the government has now seen the problems, said that they will not work, and has come up with a third plan. I wonder if it is basically what we have now, dressed up as something new and shiney! I suppose we will have to wait for the first leak to find out about this latest offering.

 

[superhorns]

We have been round this again..... over 30% of the people of UK are alienated from the political process etc etc

This compares really well to the nearly 60% in France who couldn't be bothered to vote.

 

[superhorns]

Unless 'remainer' May keeps to her promise of the UK leaving the single market and the customs union she will rightly face a leadership challenge from those Tory MPs that clearly saw and understood the referendum result. She must also stick to her mantra, no deal is better than a bad deal. The cabinet should have been composed of ministers which fairly represented the referendum result. This week really is crunch time.

 

[colognehornet]

This compares really well to the nearly 60% in France who couldn't be bothered to vote.

You are using statistics the way a drunkard uses lamposts SH. You are comparing the UK. turnout with, what was, for the French, their second vote of the year. The turnout for the presidential election of 2017 (which we have no comparison to) was 67.9% ie. not so different from the UK. Ask people to vote a second time in a year and the turnout is always going to drop.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

It generally seems to be accepted that there is no bespoke deal in the offing. It is coming down to a choice between something like a Norway style deal, or a simple free trade deal similar to Canada without services. It must have been obvious from the beginning that something like this would happen, and no amount of posturing from the Brexiteers in the party could make it much different.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

You are using statistics the way a drunkard uses lamposts SH. You are comparing the UK. turnout with, what was, for the French, their second vote of the year. The turnout for the presidential election of 2017 (which we have no comparison to) was 67.9% ie. not so different from the UK. Ask people to vote a second time in a year and the turnout is always going to drop.

Quite correct. The big vote was for the President, with the second vote similar to county council elections. It was so clear that both the left and right wing parties had been seen off, people didn't feel the need to turn out again.