Off Topic UK / EU Future

[Hornet-Fez]

To be fair all of us are expressing our own opinions. There are very few incontrovertible facts re brexit.

To be fair, that's not how the original post was written.

"There are clearly many benefits in the UK leaving the EU which is why nearly 18 million voted for it. I am looking forward to the UK regaining rights which most countries absolutely take for granted...."

No mention of opinion. My response took each of the four points and answered them with facts: we already had sovereignty; the then HS did not implement the measures at her disposal; the EU favours its members; the EP is democratically elected and is all about debate and dialogue.

It really is that simple.

 

[Hornet-Fez]

As a Brexiteer I was asked for my reasons why I thought there was positives for Brexit. Your opening response regarding my post was bullshit. If you don't want me to post I quite happy not to.

Surely the idea is to respect other opinions but debate with ideas and knowledge not rudeness.

You absolutely have the right to express your opinion. However in that post you at no time presented it as opinion but as fact. You keep moving the goalposts.
You do this all the time. And have a tendency towards black/white thinking, we won-you lost-get over it mentality. And a certain arrogance that others too find difficult to bear.

Me? Well I'm a bit pompous, overly passionate and bloody stubborn so I am certainly aware of my imperfections. I absolutely despise donald trump and his government. Absolutely. And have no time for his supporters. They are corrupt, ignorant and ugly. I'm bllnkered to a degree, perhaps, but by no means blind. I call it as I see it and I'm perhaps too honest for my own good... I've heard that one before too.

The vast overwhelming majority of your posts are political. You rarely engage, though I note your offer of ticket help to Brian, on the football side - rarely the World Cup thread, prediction leagues, other sport threads and so on.

So outside engagement is minimal. We have little else to go on. I disagree vehemently with Cologne and Leo amongst others, on a variety of topics as they will attest but I don't recall it coming to this.

As I've stated elsewhere I find the political threads a nuisance and fractious, which is why I'm often absent from here. Alas certain things needed to be said, I've said them.

 

[superhorns]

You absolutely have the right to express your opinion. However in that post you at no time presented it as opinion but as fact. You keep moving the goalposts.
You do this all the time. And have a tendency towards black/white thinking, we won-you lost-get over it mentality. And a certain arrogance that others too find difficult to bear.

Me? Well I'm a bit pompous, overly passionate and bloody stubborn so I am certainly aware of my imperfections. I absolutely despise donald trump and his government. Absolutely. And have no time for his supporters. They are corrupt, ignorant and ugly. I'm bllnkered to a degree, perhaps, but by no means blind. I call it as I see it and I'm perhaps too honest for my own good... I've heard that one before too.

The vast overwhelming majority of your posts are political. You rarely engage, though I note your offer of ticket help to Brian, on the football side - rarely the World Cup thread, prediction leagues, other sport threads and so on.

So outside engagement is minimal. We have little else to go on. I disagree vehemently with Cologne and Leo amongst others, on a variety of topics as they will attest but I don't recall it coming to this.

As I've stated elsewhere I find the political threads a nuisance and fractious, which is why I'm often absent from here. Alas certain things needed to be said, I've said them.

If you find the political thread a nuisance it would be best to avoid it rather than lower the tone of the debate. Sorry I was completely unaware of the rules that I must post on other threads to be able to comment on the political one.

I can perfectly understand why Tories and Brexiteers in general avoid this site like the plague as only a very narrow band of viewpoint is tolerated. A particularly strange situation.

 

[colognehornet]

No - you devise a policy that is not stupid. Economic migrants should be allowed if the receiving country wants them - benefit to both parties. Do you just trot out old arguments that I have seen you use before for effect? Who spoke of criminals?
Asylum seekers need to be treated according to international law - not given free access to wherever they choose. Bogus asylum seekers should be returned home - per international law.

When people arrive on your border they do not have a sign around their neck saying 'I am an economic migrant', you do not know their purpose at the point of entry. The catagory of refugee, or claimant of political asylum, is much more far reaching than many people are prepared to admit. It does not just cover people from war zones, but also anyone who could be in danger of human rights violations or certain other types of discrimination in their homeland. These are covered by international laws and Merkel is not free to interpret those the way she wishes. Whilst it is not normally protocol to acknowledge political asylum from other EU. countries it does happen, and is possible. How else would there be Basque separatists on asylum in Belgium ? Their lives are not in danger if they return, but it is to be suspected that they would not get a fair trial in Spain - which equals asylum. The situation for people of Romany ethnic origins in the Balkans is also sufficient for some to claim asylum in other EU. countries. We should have thought about this before admitting countries into the EU. which practice enforced sterilization of Romany mothers. The truth is that any claimant of asylum must be processed - what we need is to speed up this process. When Merkel opened up the borders (which were open anyway) she was acting in the spirit of Schengen. She was also relieving a dangerous bottleneck which had developed in the Balkans. Could they have all been sent back to the first country where they appeared - possibly, but why should those countries bear the brunt of this only because of their geographical position. I have heard a great deal of criticism of Merkel on here - but no ideas given as to what the alternatives were.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

There is an interesting article on the BBC website. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44532288

The conclusion is that the "will of the people" is unknown. It also shows that a similar but different question brings about a slightly different result. Perhaps those of us who are interested in politics should also remember there are a lot out there who have not engaged with it at all.

 

[superhorns]

There is an interesting article on the BBC website. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44532288

The conclusion is that the "will of the people" is unknown. It also shows that a similar but different question brings about a slightly different result. Perhaps those of us who are interested in politics should also remember there are a lot out there who have not engaged with it at all.

It shows voters have consistently maintained that controlling immigration is more important than a free trade deal with the EU although there is no reason why both cannot be achieved.

Voters were advised by all sides before the referendum that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market and the customs union. That is what they voted on.

 

[Leo]

You absolutely have the right to express your opinion. However in that post you at no time presented it as opinion but as fact. You keep moving the goalposts.
You do this all the time. And have a tendency towards black/white thinking, we won-you lost-get over it mentality. And a certain arrogance that others too find difficult to bear.

Me? Well I'm a bit pompous, overly passionate and bloody stubborn so I am certainly aware of my imperfections. I absolutely despise donald trump and his government. Absolutely. And have no time for his supporters. They are corrupt, ignorant and ugly. I'm bllnkered to a degree, perhaps, but by no means blind. I call it as I see it and I'm perhaps too honest for my own good... I've heard that one before too.

The vast overwhelming majority of your posts are political. You rarely engage, though I note your offer of ticket help to Brian, on the football side - rarely the World Cup thread, prediction leagues, other sport threads and so on.

So outside engagement is minimal. We have little else to go on. I disagree vehemently with Cologne and Leo amongst others, on a variety of topics as they will attest but I don't recall it coming to this.

As I've stated elsewhere I find the political threads a nuisance and fractious, which is why I'm often absent from here. Alas certain things needed to be said, I've said them.

Shame you don't post more - your posts are always interesting.
The trouble is Fez we all have our own style. I do not mean to, but know I can come across in a very aggressive and patronising style. The difficulty is most of us probably post very fast and as it is social media we don't spend the time to redraft our thoughts but just sling them down - as I am now. SH makes statements - they can only be his own opinion as he is not an expert nor ever professes to be presenting the results of research so we should assume almost everything any of us says is only opinion. Like me - and I suspect you and a few others he enjoys a bit of a battle. I also believe that behind the pen he is a nice guy and in a pub we would again disagree on opinions but not be as rude as we can be on here. LIke his politics or not, without SH this board sees very little variety.
I too post mostly on political threads. Partly because there are so few members here and we all support Watford so football threads soon say all there is to be said on a point. It is difficult to have too many "I agree, Vardy is one of the best England strikers for a generation"
One point I would pick out from your post though is when have you or I ever disagreed on something?
I have to say that I find the non football threads full of interesting thoughts by different people and am often surprised how knowledgeable on weird topics some posters are. If only we could all learn to play the ball and ignore all jibes at a person rather than their argument even the politics threads could be civilised.

 

[colognehornet]

Shame you don't post more - your posts are always interesting.
The trouble is Fez we all have our own style. I do not mean to, but know I can come across in a very aggressive and patronising style. The difficulty is most of us probably post very fast and as it is social media we don't spend the time to redraft our thoughts but just sling them down - as I am now. SH makes statements - they can only be his own opinion as he is not an expert nor ever professes to be presenting the results of research so we should assume almost everything any of us says is only opinion. Like me - and I suspect you and a few others he enjoys a bit of a battle. I also believe that behind the pen he is a nice guy and in a pub we would again disagree on opinions but not be as rude as we can be on here. LIke his politics or not, without SH this board sees very little variety.
I too post mostly on political threads. Partly because there are so few members here and we all support Watford so football threads soon say all there is to be said on a point. It is difficult to have too many "I agree, Vardy is one of the best England strikers for a generation"
One point I would pick out from your post though is when have you or I ever disagreed on something?
I have to say that I find the non football threads full of interesting thoughts by different people and am often surprised how knowledgeable on weird topics some posters are. If only we could all learn to play the ball and ignore all jibes at a person rather than their argument even the politics threads could be civilised.

Sorry Leo, I don't agree on Vardy Very overrated in my opinion.

 

[Hornet-Fez]

If you find the political thread a nuisance it would be best to avoid it rather than lower the tone of the debate. Sorry I was completely unaware of the rules that I must post on other threads to be able to comment on the political one.

I can perfectly understand why Tories and Brexiteers in general avoid this site like the plague as only a very narrow band of viewpoint is tolerated. A particularly strange situation.

No, you need not post elsewhere, but then as I said, this is all we have to go on about the type of person you are.
You are indeed free to post what you like, but if it can be shown to be unsubstantiated nonsense, political rhetoric, or worse then it will be exposed as such - and for an uncomfortable proportion of your posts here that tends to be what happens. People put you on the ignore list. Moderators issue warnings far too frequently to you however unjustified you might think they are. Playing the victim.

My point being is that you may well be one one of the nicest, most benevolent, quick witted and fun to be with guys on the planet. But here, the available evidence, suggests otherwise, alas.

Nobody comes here to make enemies, the odd sociopath troll excepted. I am on record elsewhere with my views on the political threads and generally avoid them these days. You invariably state a case that requires a response. As much as it irks me to feel compelled to do so.

 

[superhorns]

Sorry Leo, I don't agree on Vardy Very overrated in my opinion.

Blimey, we can agree on something then !!!!!

 

[superhorns]

No, you need not post elsewhere, but then as I said, this is all we have to go on about the type of person you are.
You are indeed free to post what you like, but if it can be shown to be unsubstantiated nonsense, political rhetoric, or worse then it will be exposed as such - and for an uncomfortable proportion of your posts here that tends to be what happens. People put you on the ignore list. Moderators issue warnings far too frequently to you however unjustified you might think they are. Playing the victim.

My point being is that you may well be one one of the nicest, most benevolent, quick witted and fun to be with guys on the planet. But here, the available evidence, suggests otherwise, alas.

Nobody comes here to make enemies, the odd sociopath troll excepted. I am on record elsewhere with my views on the political threads and generally avoid them these days. You invariably state a case that requires a response. As much as it irks me to feel compelled to do so.

You really need to ask yourself why all the Tory or Brexit supporters on this forum have either left or refrained from posting given they are the majority of the UK electorate. It really is an odd situation.

 

[Hornet-Fez]

Shame you don't post more - your posts are always interesting.
The trouble is Fez we all have our own style. I do not mean to, but know I can come across in a very aggressive and patronising style. The difficulty is most of us probably post very fast and as it is social media we don't spend the time to redraft our thoughts but just sling them down - as I am now. SH makes statements - they can only be his own opinion as he is not an expert nor ever professes to be presenting the results of research so we should assume almost everything any of us says is only opinion. Like me - and I suspect you and a few others he enjoys a bit of a battle. I also believe that behind the pen he is a nice guy and in a pub we would again disagree on opinions but not be as rude as we can be on here. LIke his politics or not, without SH this board sees very little variety.
I too post mostly on political threads. Partly because there are so few members here and we all support Watford so football threads soon say all there is to be said on a point. It is difficult to have too many "I agree, Vardy is one of the best England strikers for a generation"
One point I would pick out from your post though is when have you or I ever disagreed on something?
I have to say that I find the non football threads full of interesting thoughts by different people and am often surprised how knowledgeable on weird topics some posters are. If only we could all learn to play the ball and ignore all jibes at a person rather than their argument even the politics threads could be civilised.

Thank you. Too kind.

I think we have disagreed on religious tolerance. It was a good while ago but I am fairly sure. With Cologne I think it was pacifism. When it comes to religion I am very much in line with Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Aron Ra and other staunch atheists. I also come from an Army family, so you'll probably appreciate my dim view of the likes of corbyn.
.
Variety is the spice of life. I'm staggered by some of the in depth knowledge and experience of many on this board. The music threads are fascinating. Hats (sombreros) off to people like Mex who've made a life elsewhere, and seemingly thriving on it.

You're absolutely right about the football threads. Loving the match day threads and predictions league too... however rubbish I am!

I think I made my other point earlier.

 

[colognehornet]

Thank you. Too kind.

I think we have disagreed on religious tolerance. It was a good while ago but I am fairly sure. With Cologne I think it was pacifism. When it comes to religion I am very much in line with Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Aron Ra and other staunch atheists. I also come from an Army family, so you'll probably appreciate my dim view of the likes of corbyn.
.
Variety is the spice of life. I'm staggered by some of the in depth knowledge and experience of many on this board. The music threads are fascinating. Hats (sombreros) off to people like Mex who've made a life elsewhere, and seemingly thriving on it.

You're absolutely right about the football threads. Loving the match day threads and predictions league too... however rubbish I am!

I think I made my other point earlier.

Actually it was religion with me Fez, pacifism is not something I would get too irate about. It was me who objected to being hit with the smug certainty of people like Dawkins trying to label everything, and everyone, who doubts the ability of science to know everything, as being illogical believers in fairytales. I have nothing against atheists - but their brand of aggressive atheism gets on my nerves. If I want to believe something which does not harm you then I have a right to do it without ridicule.

 

[Hornet-Fez]

You really need to ask yourself why all the Tory or Brexit supporters on this forum have either left or refrained from posting given they are the majority of the UK electorate. It really is an odd situation.

I have. Probably because the position is untenable. I doubt that these forums are ever reflective of the wider political spectrum. Some will have views too ugly to share.

 

[superhorns]

I have. Probably because the position is untenable. I doubt that these forums are ever reflective of the wider political spectrum. Some will have views too ugly to share.

More likely put off by confrontational posters like yourself, and of course the clique, as well labelled by W-Y, are so well organised.

 

[Leo]

I think we have disagreed on religious tolerance. It was a good while ago but I am fairly sure. With Cologne I think it was pacifism. When it comes to religion I am very much in line with Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Aron Ra and other staunch atheists. I also come from an Army family, so you'll probably appreciate my dim view of the likes of corbyn.
.
Variety is the spice of life. I'm staggered by some of the in depth knowledge and experience of many on this board. The music threads are fascinating. Hats (sombreros) off to people like Mex who've made a life elsewhere, and seemingly thriving on it.

You're absolutely right about the football threads. Loving the match day threads and predictions league too... however rubbish I am!

Can't remember how we disagreed on religion as I too am a staunch atheist. Stephen Fry's comments summed things up for me. Richard Dawkins is just a pussy. Trouble is I tend to respond to points and do not always see who has said what - especially in a debate that has several people going at once. I know I inadvertantly "accused" one poster on here of either being Christian or not being Christian (cannot now remember which) and he took umbridge as if it was deliberate and we have not exchanged a polite word since. Shame but there you go. I have managed to heal most rifts with others - even SH whose views are probably diametrically opposed to mine on almost everything.
I am a pacifist so it may be me not Cologne you disagreed on that.
Was it you that I had a "difference of opinion" with on what is a coward?
Like you I am impressed by the depth of music knowledge - mine is limited to which bands from the sixties and seventies I like and hating the Dudley Moore trio with a passion along with most jazz (sorry to many).
I like reading the match day threads but have little to offer. Used to like prediction leagues but don't like the Premiership / amalgam version so have stopped doing them.
Do we both agree that Cologne is colour blind - mixes up his green and red

 

[Hornet-Fez]

Actually it was religion with me Fez, pacifism is not something I would get too irate about. It was me who objected to being hit with the smug certainty of people like Dawkins trying to label everything, and everyone, who doubts the ability of science to know everything, as being illogical believers in fairytales. I have nothing against atheists - but their brand of aggressive atheism gets on my nerves. If I want to believe something which does not harm you then I have a right to do it without ridicule.

I stand corrected, thanks Cologne. Unfortunately religion is harmful however benign a personal belief is. Religious tolerance is the product of secular knowledge and scriptural ignorance. One only needs to read a bible, koran or other bloody fairy tale (for they are bloody) to know this.

 

[Hornet-Fez]

Can't remember how we disagreed on religion as I too am a staunch atheist. Stephen Fry's comments summed things up for me. Richard Dawkins is just a pussy. Trouble is I tend to respond to points and do not always see who has said what - especially in a debate that has several people going at once. I know I inadvertantly "accused" one poster on here of either being Christian or not being Christian (cannot now remember which) and he took umbridge as if it was deliberate and we have not exchanged a polite word since. Shame but there you go. I have managed to heal most rifts with others - even SH whose views are probably diametrically opposed to mine on almost everything.
I am a pacifist so it may be me not Cologne you disagreed on that.
Was it you that I had a "difference of opinion" with on what is a coward?
Like you I am impressed by the depth of music knowledge - mine is limited to which bands from the sixties and seventies I like and hating the Dudley Moore trio with a passion along with most jazz (sorry to many).
I like reading the match day threads but have little to offer. Used to like prediction leagues but don't like the Premiership / amalgam version so have stopped doing them.
Do we both agree that Cologne is colour blind - mixes up his green and red

Yes, I had the two views swapped over. My bad.

 

[Leo]

More likely put off by confrontational posters like yourself, and of course the clique, as well labelled by W-Y, are so well organised.

In my experience many boards tend towards the left. This one seems extreme that way - especially as it is often expressed more as hatred of the Conservatives. I do agree that however you describe it over the years there has been a "consensus" around anti-Tory politics which certainly seems a bit like a pack even if in reality it is only a collection of similar opinions. Either way the balance here is rubbish and as a result we seldom get a very open debate on politics. I am also amused how some who profess not to be personal or confrontational ............

 

[superhorns]

Can't remember how we disagreed on religion as I too am a staunch atheist. Stephen Fry's comments summed things up for me. Richard Dawkins is just a pussy. Trouble is I tend to respond to points and do not always see who has said what - especially in a debate that has several people going at once. I know I inadvertantly "accused" one poster on here of either being Christian or not being Christian (cannot now remember which) and he took umbridge as if it was deliberate and we have not exchanged a polite word since. Shame but there you go. I have managed to heal most rifts with others - even SH whose views are probably diametrically opposed to mine on almost everything.
I am a pacifist so it may be me not Cologne you disagreed on that.
Was it you that I had a "difference of opinion" with on what is a coward?
Like you I am impressed by the depth of music knowledge - mine is limited to which bands from the sixties and seventies I like and hating the Dudley Moore trio with a passion along with most jazz (sorry to many).
I like reading the match day threads but have little to offer. Used to like prediction leagues but don't like the Premiership / amalgam version so have stopped doing them.
Do we both agree that Cologne is colour blind - mixes up his green and red

Don't exaggerate Leo, We are both atheists and Watford supporters. Red wine, our wives, dislike of extreme politics? the list is endless.