Off Topic UK / EU Future

[superhorns]

You see the problem is SH. According to your little World the entire opposition benches are full of a party led by 'scum', a party led by a 'poison dwarf', and a party full of wishy washy losers (not to mention the scorn you have thrown in Vince Cable's direction) - the Greens are not on your radar yet. Your own party is half full of 'remoaners' and 'rebels', and I suspect that if TM delivers anything but your dream that she will also will be cast as some kind of devil. Everyone on here who disagrees with you is either short of understanding, or often a lot worse. The World, through the eyes of SH, is full of either goodies (a shrinking few of them) and baddies (now the majority). In fact you remind me of an Alsatian that I once knew

You are right I should not leave that very rare creature, a Green supporter, off my list. Alsatians are know for their superior intelligence, efficiency and loyalty. I'll take that as a compliment.

 

[colognehornet]

You are right I should not leave that very rare creature, a Green supporter, off my list. Alsatians are know for their superior intelligence, efficiency and loyalty. I'll take that as a compliment.

I meant, of course, your tendency to see everything in black and white However, are we really going to get into an argument about the most intelligent breeds of dog ? I would take the Labrador or the Welsh Border Collie when it comes to intelligence - better the first.

 

[Deleted.......]

I meant, of course, your tendency to see everything in black and white However, are we really going to get into an argument about the most intelligent breeds of dog ? I would take the Labrador or the Welsh Border Collie when it comes to intelligence - better the first.

I just assumed you meant the dog was feral and had to be put down....

 

[superhorns]

I meant, of course, your tendency to see everything in black and white However, are we really going to get into an argument about the most intelligent breeds of dog ? I would take the Labrador or the Welsh Border Collie when it comes to intelligence - better the first.

I never get into arguments, it's against my nature.

 

[colognehornet]

A couple of questions for our Brexiteer friend: The latest YouGov poll shows that if there were a referendum tomorrow 56% would vote for remain and 44% to leave. If the question is reduced to a choice between May's Deal and remain then this becomes 65%-35% in favour of remain. If the choice is between remain and a hard Brexit then it comes out as 59%-41% in favour of remain. Is our friend also ready to champion the Governments attempted by-passing of Parliamentary sovereignty to force through a Brexit which is now against the will of the people ? There is also a 56%-44% opinion poll in favour of a second referendum - so what exactly is 'The Will of the people' now ?

 

[superhorns]

A couple of questions for our Brexiteer friend: The latest YouGov poll shows that if there were a referendum tomorrow 56% would vote for remain and 44% to leave. If the question is reduced to a choice between May's Deal and remain then this becomes 65%-35% in favour of remain. If the choice is between remain and a hard Brexit then it comes out as 59%-41% in favour of remain. Is our friend also ready to champion the Governments attempted by-passing of Parliamentary sovereignty to force through a Brexit which is now against the will of the people ? There is also a 56%-44% opinion poll in favour of a second referendum - so what exactly is 'The Will of the people' now ?

The UK government decided to give the decision on EU membership to the people. They chose Brexit. Parliament voted to activate article 50 then voted for it at every stage through the withdrawal bill. The MP's even agreed to the leaving date on the basis of agreeing deal with the EU or leaving without a deal if no agreement could be reached. The UK does not operate on opinion polls, it works by our representatives in parliament following the laws it had previously created. Under these terms the will of the people will only be served by either of the above options.

 

[colognehornet]

The UK government decided to give the decision on EU membership to the people. They chose Brexit. Parliament voted to activate article 50 then voted for it at every stage through the withdrawal bill. The MP's even agreed to the leaving date on the basis of agreeing deal with the EU or leaving without a deal if no agreement could be reached. The UK does not operate on opinion polls, it works by our representatives in parliament following the laws it had previously created. Under these terms the will of the people will only be served by either of the above options.

So you are prepared to move against the present will of the electorate, and also against the sovereignty of Parliament - that's all I wanted to know. Democracy is about the ability to change your mind and we are not imprisoned by the result of a referendum which happened nearly 3 years before the event - the opinion at the time of doing the act has precedence.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The UK government decided to give the decision on EU membership to the people. They chose Brexit. Parliament voted to activate article 50 then voted for it at every stage through the withdrawal bill. The MP's even agreed to the leaving date on the basis of agreeing deal with the EU or leaving without a deal if no agreement could be reached. The UK does not operate on opinion polls, it works by our representatives in parliament following the laws it had previously created. Under these terms the will of the people will only be served by either of the above options.

The MPs create the laws, and also change them. They never voted for this deal, so are quite entitled to change the law now they know what it entails. As MPs they listen to the people they represent, or should, although they are not bound to follow what they say. They represent us and are not delegates. It was clear that for different reasons there is no support for the current situation, so it will become necessary to change the existing law. For goodness sake SH, things are changing, yet you still seem stuck in the past.

 

[superhorns]

So you are prepared to move against the present will of the electorate, and also against the sovereignty of Parliament - that's all I wanted to know. Democracy is about the ability to change your mind and we are not imprisoned by the result of a referendum which happened nearly 3 years before the event - the opinion at the time of doing the act has precedence.

I believe in the UK parliamentary system and the rule of law. What parliament is trying to do is to take control from the people. This has relied upon an openly anti Brexit speaker of the house who revels in being the centre of attention at the expense of the reputation of parliament itself. Parliament has already put into law a mechanism for the UK to leave on March 29th.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I believe in the UK parliamentary system and the rule of law. What parliament is trying to do is to take control from the people. This has relied upon an openly anti Brexit speaker of the house who revels in being the centre of attention at the expense of the reputation of parliament itself. Parliament has already put into law a mechanism for the UK to leave on March 29th.

Total nonsense. Parliament is the people. You vote for a MP and give your sovereignty to him or her. Once that has happened the MPs make laws on our behalf, and if they so desire can change them when they see where the problems lie. Why do you think that they are in the process of changing the rules for universal credit?

 

[yorkshirehornet]

Total nonsense. Parliament is the people. You vote for a MP and give your sovereignty to him or her. Once that has happened the MPs make laws on our behalf, and if they so desire can change them when they see where the problems lie. Why do you think that they are in the process of changing the rules for universal credit?

Well said..

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I doubt that many of us were surprised to find out that despite the horrific defeat suffered by the government last week, plan B was actually plan A. Listening closely I could not even see that it was plan A+. Still maybe there is some movement. She is working to find a deal "such that we can" leave on March 29th. No longer the we will. Also the customs union question was avoided several times. Quite what is in her mind however is beyond even a best guess. Just like Thatcher in her last days she has dug her heels in to save her job, and we all know how that finished.
The Lords have also dug their heels in and have refused to move on to the next stage of the trade bill because there is not enough information in it for them to discuss. This could be a major problem come the end of March.
Maybe an election is nearer than we might think with the Chairman of the Tory Party trying to raise money from the members to pay for one. A friend tells me he can go and whistle for it since the local Tory club closed due to lack of membership.

 

[superhorns]

In the last year average weekly earnings rose by the largest amount for 10 years. Unemployment reduced to its lowest level since the 1970's. The number of people in work rose to a record level.

The Uk certainly knows how to create jobs, an example for the struggling Macron boy to learn from.

 

[Scullion]

So you are prepared to move against the present will of the electorate, and also against the sovereignty of Parliament - that's all I wanted to know. Democracy is about the ability to change your mind and we are not imprisoned by the result of a referendum which happened nearly 3 years before the event - the opinion at the time of doing the act has precedence.

After a general election you often find opinion polls swing against the party in government but there is not clamour for another general election to reflect the will of the people in the polls, you have to wait until the next election.

It is parliament who decides if there is to be a general election or referendum and they will have to weigh up the risks of going down that road.

 

[colognehornet]

After a general election you often find opinion polls swing against the party in government but there is not clamour for another general election to reflect the will of the people in the polls, you have to wait until the next election.

It is parliament who decides if there is to be a general election or referendum and they will have to weigh up the risks of going down that road.

The difference is the time span between referendum and actually leaving Scully. You would not have a General Election which asked the question 'Who do you want to form the Government in 3 years time' - but rather ask the question closer to the event. A second referendum just before leaving (or not) would give a far closer feedback as to exactly what the country wants, now that the options and consequences are much better known.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

After a general election you often find opinion polls swing against the party in government but there is not clamour for another general election to reflect the will of the people in the polls, you have to wait until the next election.

It is parliament who decides if there is to be a general election or referendum and they will have to weigh up the risks of going down that road.

You are quite right that there is often a swing against a government after an election, and the party in charge will take no notice, hoping that by the time of the next election things will look better. As I said recently we hand over our individual sovereignty to MPs to do what they think is best for the country seeing as they have loads of detailed information to hand that Joe Public doesn't have time to read, and in many cases understand. If they do not come up to what we hope and expect, then at the next election we can show it in the way we vote. That of course doesn't mean that we will get what we want as so many places have MPs who will be elected no matter what they say or do simply because of their party label.

 

[colognehornet]

You are quite right that there is often a swing against a government after an election, and the party in charge will take no notice, hoping that by the time of the next election things will look better. As I said recently we hand over our individual sovereignty to MPs to do what they think is best for the country seeing as they have loads of detailed information to hand that Joe Public doesn't have time to read, and in many cases understand. If they do not come up to what we hope and expect, then at the next election we can show it in the way we vote. That of course doesn't mean that we will get what we want as so many places have MPs who will be elected no matter what they say or do simply because of their party label.

Also the nature of our General Elections is that we do not get what we want. Is it the 'Will of the people' that a party with only 36-37% of the vote can claim a majority on that basis - and that the others (the majority) always go away saying 'I didn't vote for that'. The majority is always against the government in the UK, and that is a fact of life. Expecting parties to now compromise with each other after a century of first past the post voting is like expecting dogs to fly. Our political system is divisive by nature and only fundamental reform will change that. The question has often been asked 'Why is Corbyn sitting on the fence' ? Because he knows the British voting system, and he knows that if the remain vote is shared between 4 parties, and the Tories have a Brexit monopoly then it can only lead to one result in a General Election. Combine our first past the post system with what is one of the most centralized countries in the West and you have a democratic deficit problem.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Also the nature of our General Elections is that we do not get what we want. Is it the 'Will of the people' that a party with only 36-37% of the vote can claim a majority on that basis - and that the others (the majority) always go away saying 'I didn't vote for that'. The majority is always against the government in the UK, and that is a fact of life. Expecting parties to now compromise with each other after a century of first past the post voting is like expecting dogs to fly. Our political system is divisive by nature and only fundamental reform will change that. The question has often been asked 'Why is Corbyn sitting on the fence' ? Because he knows the British voting system, and he knows that if the remain vote is shared between 4 parties, and the Tories have a Brexit monopoly then it can only lead to one result in a General Election. Combine our first past the post system with what is one of the most centralized countries in the West and you have a democratic deficit problem.

I don't disagree with you, but it will not change by one of the two main political parties volunteering to put their chance of being in government at risk by choosing to change the system. Something will have to happen that forces change such as Brexit where the parliament is totally gridlocked. Can this minority government hold the warring factions together? Can Corbyn be pushed towards something that his party members say they want? There are so many unknowns at present it is quite possible that both parties could shatter, and after that what happens?
The current situation is totally unreal. In normal times people are asked to elect a government on a whole range of policies, but today everything has become polarised around just the one subject. Normally one might agree with some proposals but not others. It then comes down to finding what you think is best on balance. With just the one issue people are being forced into a black or white position.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

P&O, which began life as the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation company in 1837, said all six of its cross-Channel ferries will be re-registered from the UK registry to Cyprus to keep EU tax benefits. The ferries include, the Spirit of Britain, the Pride of Kent and the Pride of Canterbury.

I suggest that a name change might be a good idea for the vessels , but it is a shame to see a company that has been in the UK for so long being forced to leave.

 

[rudebwoy]

P&O, which began life as the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation company in 1837, said all six of its cross-Channel ferries will be re-registered from the UK registry to Cyprus to keep EU tax benefits. The ferries include, the Spirit of Britain, the Pride of Kent and the Pride of Canterbury.

I suggest that a name change might be a good idea for the vessels , but it is a shame to see a company that has been in the UK for so long being forced to leave.

The Spirit of Brexit , Pride of Limassol ,Valletta Queen : just three more appropriate names , truth is that P and O ceased to be a “british “ company in 1987 ,the flagging out is the last administrative move , the truth is that the decline of the empire continues apace , despite the wailings of the fantasists , expect much more of this , those of us who can’t just up sticks and relocate are left to deal with the impoverishment , at least we will have blue passports ...........made in france though