Match Day Thread Tottenham v Norwich

[GozoCanary]

A nice play on the very different meanings of "authority" there Gozo!
And Klinsmann didn't say he thought Josh needed a year in Bundesliga 2; he said having to spend a year in Bundesliga 2 would be better for Josh than coming to Norwich (and enduring a second year in a struggling team trying to avoid relegation).
Why so down and negative Gozo? The club parting company with Farke really seems to have got to you.

I don't think I'm any more down or negative than usual, Robbie - it's being so cheerful as keeps me going. Regarding Farke, I was totally undecided about whether it was the right thing to do, but I've come round to the idea that it was required. I wasn't excited about Smith at first, and the only plus I could see was the fact that he wasn't Lampard. But as I've learned more, I believe Smith is a good appointment who stands as much chance as anyone of keeping us up.

I hate it when one player becomes the scapegoat for all the club's ills, as often happens on the PinkUn message board, so I have never joined in the witch-hunts against Hanley or McLean or whoever is villain of the week. I admit I have been critical of players for their attitude (e.g. Cantwell) and probably unfairly so because I've spoken from a position where I am making assumptions without evidence, but I never wade in if I think a player is trying his best. With Sargent, though, I have to make an exception. I just cannot understand why anyone is saying he should have more time when he's already had about 700 minutes in league games while other players have had virtually none. He may be an athlete but he is not a footballer. I know all players screw up sometimes, but with him we are talking about a different level of repeated ineptitude. Yes, Lees-Melou should have scored in the last minute at Newcastle and Pukki should have scored at the start of the Spurs game and Idah missed a good chance against Spurs, but in all three cases the player still needed to do something that required some skill - in LM's case, lift the ball a foot higher over the keeper; in Pukki's case get the angle exactly right for it to go into the corner but not let the defender to his left make an interception; in Idah's case try to react with lightning-like reflexes to a mishit shot that was coming at him fast. Compare that to the empty net against Brighton, or the two-yard miss against Newcastle, or the Bambi-on-ice clumsiness against Spurs. To miss one opportunity where it looks almost impossible not to score may be regarded as a misfortune; to miss several looks like carelessness.

So if I'm even more pessimistic than usual, it's because we're stuck with this £8m purchase and I'm pretty sure we'll continue to play him to 'give him more time'. If any player needs to be loaned out, it's Sargent, but this won't happen because it wouldn't look good for Webber and his reputation as a master recruiter. My opinion of Webber has plummeted over the last six months and I now tend to think that he got lucky with Buendia and Pukki - especially in the way that they gelled as a pair - and also from being DoF at a time when a group of fantastic young players were coming through to the first team. Despite having loads of time to plan for the Prem campaign since we achieved promotion quite early, he didn't recruit a DM, he spent 5m on a reserve goalie when Barden did fine last year, he spent 8m on a player who cannot trap, control or pass a ball, he arranged a loan (Gilmour) which seemed much more about the player's reputation than about what the team actually needed, plus, if Smith hadn't become available, it would seem that we would have gone for Lampard (if he'd agreed to come here) or be stuck with no manager ahead of a group of fixtures that we desperately needed points from.

I don't deny that in many ways Webber has done fantastic stuff for Norwich, but I think his walk-on-water period is ancient history.

OK, whingefest over. I know it sounds negative, but I still feel we have a good chance of survival this season if we can get a point a game over the next five fixtures. But if Sargent is in the starting XI against MU, and Tzolis, Sorensen and Idah aren't, I am in danger of smashing up my laptop.

EDIT: If Pukki had scored his chance yesterday, Idah would have had an assist from about 100 minutes of league football. Sargent has had about 700 minutes - no goals, no assists, no shots on target (unless you count the slo-mo shot against Brighton). If either of these deserves more time, who is it?

 

[Canary Rob]

Fair enough Gozo. I’m afraid I disagree, partly because I think if you’re able to get yourself into those scoring positions in the Premier League, you must by definition be a class footballer as it’s the very highest level so even forging opportunities is a degree of skill.

However, it’s mainly because when you look at the rest of Sargent’s game you can see he’s got skill, energy but he’s raw - those sort of misses you highlight are so blatant that for me they just cannot be about a lack of skill, rather to me they are obviously about a lack of composure - he’s young and panicking. He needs to break the proverbial duck and then I think he might really do it. The danger is he becomes Ricky Van Wolfswinkel (eek) who we all knew was a class footballer but just couldn’t get his mojo back.

 

[DUNCAN DONUTS]

I heard a pretty awful stat Sunday, we only have 2 players with more than 1 Premier league goal in the squad Pukki & Cantwell .

I'm guessing we will have to sell someone to recruit another striker in January.

We all hope Rashica Idah Sargent Lees-Melou McLean start chipping in but thus far we are heavily reliant on Pukki.

Hugill looks like he's being sent packing so another loan for him and Idah looks likely.

I thought we should have tried harder to sign Armstrong but he's not exactly setting the place on fire at Saints .

 

[GozoCanary]

Fair enough Gozo. I’m afraid I disagree, partly because I think if you’re able to get yourself into those scoring positions in the Premier League, you must by definition be a class footballer as it’s the very highest level so even forging opportunities is a degree of skill.

However, it’s mainly because when you look at the rest of Sargent’s game you can see he’s got skill, energy but he’s raw - those sort of misses you highlight are so blatant that for me they just cannot be about a lack of skill, rather to me they are obviously about a lack of composure - he’s young and panicking. He needs to break the proverbial duck and then I think he might really do it. The danger is he becomes Ricky Van Wolfswinkel (eek) who we all knew was a class footballer but just couldn’t get his mojo back.

Let's hope I have to eat my words by the end of the season. But seriously, how many more chances are we going to give him, and what happens if he continues to screw up and cost us even more points? And this may not be just readjustment to the PL. He scored 13 league goals for Bremen over three seasons, plus 7 goals for Bremen II (in a league which must be about L2 level?) You're pinning a lot of trust on someone who hasn't delivered very much so far.

EDIT: BTW, when I talked about Sargent going out on loan, I wasn't just being snippy. If you are right in your analysis of him, I think it could do him wonders. Playing in a lower league where ball skills are less essential, playing under less pressure. But for the reasons I gave in my earlier post, there isn't a cat in hell's chance of this happening.

 

[Canary Rob]

Let's hope I have to eat my words by the end of the season. But seriously, how many more chances are we going to give him, and what happens if he continues to screw up and cost us even more points? And this may not be just readjustment to the PL. He scored 13 league goals for Bremen over three seasons, plus 7 goals for Bremen II (in a league which must be about L2 level?) You're pinning a lot of trust on someone who hasn't delivered very much so far.

I’m not pinning trust, I’m just saying I think the evidence suggests there is a very good footballer in there, notwithstanding all the mistakes which I agree you have identified. I don’t have a strong view on whether he costs us points as it’s difficult to know whether another of our players would have carved out the same opportunities to throw away in the first place.

I’d prefer we went back to the Southampton model of him coming off the bench as I think his energy and endeavour, given his raw talent, are better suited to tiring opposition and mixing up the match style a bit.

 

[RiverEndRick]

I've questioned their ratings at times in he past. And sometimes I flat out disagree with them. Overall they are as good as any I've seen if taken with a pinch of salt.

If you ever need a stream, let me know.

The individual ratings can depend he rater doing them, but they should be based on each individual action, good or bad. The average ratings with sub appearances taken out give a more reliable indication really.

The other thing is what seems to be a bias towards attacking actions over defensive ones (a whole point for a goal and half a point for assists). This is why Normann outscores Skipp overall, but then you could say that Normann's range of passing and his goal and assist have greater in impact than the defensive actions of both.

 

[Canary Rob]

The thing I don’t like about those sort of granular ratings of actions/mistakes etc is that they just don’t reflect a truly great performance.

A centre-back marshalling the defence brilliantly, communicating and instructing his teammates where to move to, anticipating runs etc may end up doing very little if he manages to prevent attacks early. Or a fullback who marks Mo Salah out the game might do nothing all day, may even miss a tackle or two, but if he’s largely stifled the best player in the league on that day he’s had a stormer. Or a striker harasses and hassles the opposition with aggressive pressing - never makes a tackle nor does he score a goal, but that pressure creates turnovers etc, that could be a match winning effort without the cold hard facts to prove it.

So the ratings are a decent proxy, but they’re not the same as watching and understanding

 

[RiverEndRick]

I’m not pinning trust, I’m just saying I think the evidence suggests there is a very good footballer in there, notwithstanding all the mistakes which I agree you have identified. I don’t have a strong view on whether he costs us points as it’s difficult to know whether another of our players would have carved out the same opportunities to throw away in the first place.

I’d prefer we went back to the Southampton model of him coming off the bench as I think his energy and endeavour, given his raw talent, are better suited to tiring opposition and mixing up the match style a bit.

Sargent is certainly an enigma. I think you're right that the PL pressure is putting him off his game. Like every PL player, he knows that every game is broadcast all over the world and analysed to the Nth degree. Pukki and Buendia had the advantage of coming into the Championship when expectations were low after finishing 14th the previous season. Even so, it took both a time to get going. At 21, Sargent is still young for this league, as is Idah, who has also had a number of games for Ireland without scoring, even though the opposition is often well below PL level.

Sargent has come into a team which had to struggle for 2 points from the first 9 games and confidence was low throughout. The unbeaten run and a change of manager have lifted morale, but there's still a long way to go, as the Spurs game showed. Like Rob, I think Sargent has been panicking when a chance comes. By all accounts, Pukki was similar when he was 21. Players like Owen and Rooney don't come along that often. What Sargent does offer is excellent pressing that disrupts opposition play and he's even better than Buendia in that regard. Smith sees him more as a wide player than a striker, which is why Idah started in the two striker formation, without causing much of a problem to Spurs. I'm pretty sure Smith is going to want another striker in January if we can find the money for one, but I don't see Sargent going out on loan.

Here's Smith's view:

https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/norwich-city/canaries-ncfc-dean-smith-josh-sargent-backing-8545314

 

[SuffolkCanary]

I couldn’t watch the game, how did Sorensen do in his 10 minute cameo?

There seems to have been a few people criticising Idah, which I think is unfair considering he has only had a few cameos in the last 2 years, we can’t expect him to hit the ground running immediately from his first start. From the highlights he appeared to do well and his chance was a difficult one as it came to him very quickly, albeit from 6 yards out.

 

[RiverEndRick]

Sørensen seemed to slot in well but the game was over by then. Good that he got a chance finally and a rating of 6.23 from 12 minutes on the pitch suggests he did all right. Gilmour was rated at 5.8, for example. I wonder whether he might get more time against ManUtd.

 

[GozoCanary]

Fair enough Gozo. I’m afraid I disagree, partly because I think if you’re able to get yourself into those scoring positions in the Premier League, you must by definition be a class footballer as it’s the very highest level so even forging opportunities is a degree of skill.

However, it’s mainly because when you look at the rest of Sargent’s game you can see he’s got skill, energy but he’s raw - those sort of misses you highlight are so blatant that for me they just cannot be about a lack of skill, rather to me they are obviously about a lack of composure - he’s young and panicking. He needs to break the proverbial duck and then I think he might really do it. The danger is he becomes Ricky Van Wolfswinkel (eek) who we all knew was a class footballer but just couldn’t get his mojo back.

I've been thinking about what you and Rick have said in response to my original post, Rob, and I can see where you're both coming from. There must be some skills there or he wouldn't have played in the Bundesliga. He can press very well, and it can't just be coincidence that he often ends up in a good position to score. That suggests footballing intelligence or whatever you want to call it, and as a player ages that becomes more and more important. But at the moment I still don't think he's anywhere near ready for the Prem and each time we choose him and deny a place to a player who might be more ready, we're making our position in the league more perilous. I still think he's had enough of a chance and other people deserve their chance of a run of games now.

 

[Canary Spring]

Streams are erratic for me. At the start of the season they were superb, then I couldn't get a feed at all for three or four matches, but the last four have been superb again. The last one being the day I arrived back in UK.

Yes, I thought being in the PL would make it easy to find streams. That hasn't been the case and often the quality is poor . The entire internet has tightened up this past year with sites demanding to use cookies or telling us to turn off ad blockers.

I see Archant's Monday Q&A with Paddy, Connor, Dave now requires that we download the app which costs £1.99/mo. It's not that much money but those things can add up if you access to several sites.

 

[Rowdy]

Still think Sargent will score 15/20 in the Championship, next season