I wouldn't say £6m is a pathetic price for someone who's 6th or 7th choice and likely to only feature when we're threadbare or in Europa. The loan deal could work the opposite way though, if he fails to impress then not only will he continue to remain far down the pecking order but any chance of us making a decent bit of money on him decreases. Sherwood's got an 18 month deal and the way we're playing, I wouldn't be surprised if come the summer, he gets an extension. I know Levy makes rash decisions but I highly doubt he'd sack/ demote a manager after just 6 months, especially if things go well. Matic and Chelsea is a different scenario. Despite being on their books previously, Chelsea are technically buying a new player as he never (or very rarely) played for them. He's also only proved himself in Portugal and not the Prem so there's a huge risk in parting with £20m, luckily for Chelsea they can afford that. Holtby has played a fair handful of games for us and failed to impress for the most part, falling further down the pecking order here than when he initially arrived. Capoue's problem has been his supposed attitude otherwise he probably would've featured as a DM alongside Dembele. When Sandro returns I'm sure he'll go straight into the side. I was surprised we signed Capoue in the first place due to the midfielders we had but having said that, in the games he's played, he's looked a very handy player to have and someone that is a good back up to Sandro. If he goes then so be it, it'll be a shame as he looked as though he could play a part for us until the problem with Tim. Holtby on the other hand, hasn't done anything to convince me that he's needed apart from the fact that if we get 5 or 6 injuries in midfield, he can "do a job" and so if we can make a profit on him then it's a no brainer I feel. Perhaps Holtby wants a move anyway? It's not been the best 12 months for him and with the World Cup round the corner maybe he feels a move is in his best interests.
I don't think his price can fall any lower if he's currently valued at £6mill. You've said you think he's talented but frankly I'm not sure you rate him at all reading what you've said. We've just sold a 31 year old who hardly gets a start for £8mill, £6mill is a stupidly low fee for him. Depends what Levy thinks "things going well" is. I don't think anyone should be under any illusions that Sherwood is Levy's choice, from the sound of it Levy was contacting a fair few managers and even met Van Gaal when he'd alreay said he wouldn't be avilable until after the World Cup. I'd be stunned if Levy decided to drastically lower his expectations to keep Sherwood on when there's going to be a lot of experienced managers available in the summer. Well of course it's a different scenario with Matic, the point I was trying to make is that loaning him gives us a chance to change our mind without it costing us. Defoe's another one, 8 months later we had a new manager and had sold 2 strikers and we end up paying more to re-sign him. Things can change quickly in football. You didn't think we needed Capoue?! Parker was clearly on the way out, Sandro was injured and Dembele's injury prone yet you didn't think we needed another midfielder? I doubt that's true. I wouldn't be surprised if Holtby does want a move, given that he's hardly had a kick since the new manager came in. It doesn't mean that Sherwood couldn't change his mind, there was no suggestion that he was anything but happy under AVB so Tim's already changed his mind once. As for the World Cup, Holtby hasn't been called up to the Germany squad for a long time, I doubt he's holding off on booking a holiday in the hope of getting a call up, let alone demanding a transfer because of it.
YV what have these 'experienced' managers ever done to warrant such faith from you. The only English club where the manager has made a long term difference is United and he was not an overnight success, but they had tried all the star managers to replace Busby and finally went for continuity. Providing Sherwood does not inhibit the payers as AVB did there is every reason to stick with him, change guarantees nothing except another transition period.
I don't rate him you're right. I've said he's talented but doesn't show it with us and that he seems a great guy but being a great guy doesn't make you a first teamer/ stand out squad player. We paid £1.5m for Holtby, even though that was due to his contract having 6 months left, clubs will not be looking at offering us a crazy price for a player we paid a pittance (in footballing terms) for when he's done nothing to suggest he's worth much more than we're asking. Going well would be to get CL or at least give it a good shout. I don't think I'm alone in saying that under AVB I felt we were out of the race yet since Tim took over, my opinion has changed and I know believe we stand a good chance. Changing managers after 6 months is pretty insane in my opinion. Defoe is going to a side who's injected a huge cash sum into the club, they feel Defoe is a player who can raise the profile of both Toronto and the MLS hence why they're willing to part with a high cash amount. Lets not forget that Defoe has been one of the best strikers in English football for the best part of a decade and even at 31, still has a lot to offer. Spurs may have been reluctant to sell too, hence the high transfer fee. Toronto realistically know they won't be able to attract an actual superstar in their prime to join them, so signing an international forward with a respectable reputation who's just past his peak is the best they can realistically get. Sandro was supposedly returning from injury when we signed Capoue (replaced Capoue at Arsenal eventually didn't he?), we had Dembele, Paulinho plus the likes of Holtby and Sigurdsson (and any youngsters if need be) to come in. I wasn't disappointed at his signing though and it's turned out we did indeed need him for periods. Sherwood may well change his mind, I have no problem if Holtby stays I just don't see the point of him staying, from both his and the club's perspective. I think getting £6m for him is a good deal. Just because Holtby hasn't been called up in the past year doesn't mean he doesn't hold hope of reaching the squad. Any professional with ambition wants to get into their national squad, especially for major tournaments. The likes of Adam Johnson, Stewart Downing, Aaron Lennon all surely cling to the hope of receiving another call up if they can impress from now until selection and I'm sure they'd be desperate to play in order to keep that slim chance alive.
I have more faith in experienced and successful managers because they have a history of success. You know what they're capable of. If Sherwood finishes, 5th/6th with no trophy what's the point in sticking with him? There will be plenty of successful managers and proven PL managers available in the summer so for what reason would we stick with Sherwood, who only has an average league finish and crashing out of the cups on his record? We tried a young manager and an attempt to bring continuity in but it didn't work. Trying to bring continuity in is very difficult these days, unlike when Fergie got the job. If we were prepared to bring in continuity then we should've stuck with AVB. After 8 months everything was going perfectly we were 3rd and 7 points above 5th, 8 months later he was sacked. You don't get to cop out on "his tactics didn't work", continuity is about showing faith in the manager and believing their overall effect with be positive. And you can bet there'll be some good reasons to doubt Sherwood by the end of the season if he doesn't get us top 4. I was happy for AVB to be judged on his results and I'm happy for Sherwood and any future manager to be judged the same. Managers with better records get given more time because they know the job better.
Sticking with AVB and continuing with that awful brand of football does not bear thinking about. If Sherwood gets 5th or 6th then he has done at least as well as AVB who took over a successful squad. A natural abilty to motivate players and spot the right player for the job are, I would argue, the most important assets, experience comes to all with half a brain.
Capoue supposedly being sold for £7.5m - which is £1.5m less than we signed him for six months ago!
Portugese & Spanish football why would we want to import that. We have a better brand of football in England, far more variety, more excitement, all round a better game. Let's celebrate that and if we have an English manager wanting to deliver that let's wish him luck. Yeah! I know, like Redknapp.
He took over when we were 7th or 8th didn't he? So technically he's taken us up a few positions already, if we can maintain the push for CL and give the EL a go, I don't think it'll be a bad job Sherwood's done. West Ham in the cup was obviously a huge blow but he'd only been in charge less than a day and technically "done better" than AVB against West Ham - not that it's an excuse as we should be pulverising West Ham at WHL with our B team. Arsenal away we're more or less expected to lose, it was just a shame it was a poor performance.
we should not be sacking sherwood in the summer regardless. Levy needs to stick to a ****ing decision once in a while. If we sack after 6 months we'll be even more of a laughing stock and soon nobody will take the job, i assume we don't have the financial draw of Chelsea but we've got all the job security
Long term you are right, but firing Scolari and bringing Hiddinck in went well for Chelsea, Ancelotti was a big step up on Grant. On the whole though, I agree - manager's effect is overrated, it is more about recruitment and then settling on best tactics. Someone like Harry seemed to be able to fire up his troops, but that shouldn't really be necessary. It is in their interest to be successful and no Manager should need to force this.
I think we're just repeating ourselves here. When you look at deals other clubs are doing then £6mill for him looks well short of a good price for him. A year ago he was an accomplished Bundesliga player with CL experience, inwhich he impressed. Not much has changed since then and if that makes him worth £6mill then God knows what Everton were doing paying double that for James McCarthy or spending the same amount on Arouna Kone. The profit doesn't mean anything to me, we don't especially even need the money. I still find it hard to believe you didn't think we needed Capoue in the summer. Remember back when we all thought we were going to play 433? Did you really think that when Sandro was injured or rested that it would work to pick a midfield 3 out of Holtby, Sigurdsson, Paulinho and Dembele? Because I can't think of a single team that has been successful in recent years without a quality holding midfielder and quality backup.
I think you're missing the point somewhat. We're not in a position to show faith in a manager that hasn't proven anything. We tried it with AVB and it didn't work. More fool on us if we do this again next season because what happens if we don't start the season well then? Do we sack Sherwood and start the merry-go-round again? Do we stick with him and just hope for the best? It's very easy to sit here now and talk about continuity and the importance of sticking with Sherwood but that shine will come off very quickly if our form starts to drop. See this is the problem. You can't treat AVB as a failure who wasn't up to the job and then use his performance as a benchmark for the next manager. And was our 2nd loss against West Ham really any better? I'd say it's every bit as bad given that we were up against a small squad, with injury problems who still rested players for the game. Again it's a very low benchmark if you think losing by less than 3 goals to West Ham is anything less than crap. I'd agree that finishing just off the top 4 and winning a few more games in the Europa League isn't bad. But since when did not doing badly become all we expect from a manager? Di Matteo wasn't doing badly at West Brom, Hughton wasn't doing badly at Newcastle, Adkins wasn't doing badly at Southampton. It's not always about whether the manager deserves the sack but who else is out there and available. You wouldn't spend vast amounts of money on assembling a squad of quality players and then stick an 18 year old in goal because he's "not bad". We should be expecting the quality of the manager to reflect the quality of the players. Sherwood has a very rare chance to prove this over the coming months but if he falls short then we should get someone else in. There are options out there who have the track record that shows they can assemble top teams, win titles and can get the best out of the players they have. This probably all makes it sound like I'm anti-Sherwood, which I'm not. I'm pretty pissed off that he's selling Holtby but I was also pissed off with the performance of the vast majority of our players on Saturday, that doesn't mean I dislike them. If they do their jobs until the rest of the season to a high standard then I'll be happy.
If the Capoue rumour is true that he's sold, and for less than purchase, I'd say you all need to listen what SC said about his antics of late. If he's one of these types who thinks he's bigger than the club and should be playing, sulks when he doesn't and engineers a move by irritating the manager with petty disciplinary issues, we're better off with that kind of player out of the dressing room. I also have to say his display at CB (a position he knows well) v W.Ham was one of the poorest I've ever seen from a pro at this level. If I knew nothing and had just turned up at that game as a neutral to watch him, I'd have said he looked like a pub player, truly lost at times and his facial expressions and body language were of someone just way out of his depth. Everyone has a bad game, we all know that, and never would i judge a player on one game. I'm just pointing out that instance and i do struggle to find the appropraite words tbh.
Accomplished Bundesliga player, poor Premier League player. James McCarthy is young, British, Prem proven and was signed on deadline day from a club he was the key player at, I personally wouldn't have paid the amount they did but lets not forget Everton needed to replace Fellaini who they got £30m for so overall, getting McCarthy and roughly a £15m profit isn't bad going. Comparing McCarthy to a player who's failed to impress and seems to be unwanted if reports are true is pointless. Kone is a striker and had a fairly impressive debut season for a poor team, how often can you pick up even a half decent striker in England for less than £7m these days? We sold Huddlestone for £6m, a player who's more than proven in the Premier League. What makes Holtby worth more than him? The 4-3-3 was always going to be pretty much a 4-5-1 - with 2 CM's (one DM preferably) and a CAM. Paulinho and Dembele sitting deep while Sandro is out is a more than effective combo to both defend and attack with a choice of Holtby/ Sigurdsson in the advanced role. Paulinho started his career as a DM. While of course it's been proven how handy it was to have Capoue, prior to his signing, I never felt we needed him. But my opinion has changed now and I hope he can rectificy his problem with Tim as Sandro's fitness is a bit of a worry and while Sandro (and Paulinho) is out, Capoue is the perfect stand-in.
Oh by any means don't think I'm defending the performance, it was shocking. My point was more to the fact that it was his first game in charge after only being appointed less than 24 hours prior to it and that in retrospect "2-1 isn't as bad as 3-0" but nothing to be excited or pleased about. I can see what you're saying in terms of bringing in a manager with a proven track record but my worry is that we've tried pretty much every sort of manager in the past 5 years. Ramos came to us after back-to-back successes in the UEFA Cup and while he a managed a trophy our league form was woeful, then Harry, a proven man-manager specialist done very well but shot himself in the foot, then AVB, a young manager who'd had great success with Porto but flopped at Chelsea managed to help get the best from Bale but ultimately got us playing dull football without results... I'm now in a position where I think maybe an internal appointment COULD work out well, of course Hiddink/ van Gaal/ de Boer/ Benitez etc would've been more than welcome but I think Sherwood has an edge over all of them by how he knows Tottenham inside out. Yes he's not a big name and likely won't attract many major stars (not that we actually need any right now anyway) but he knows the players well and sometimes that alone is a bonus instead of a manager coming in and needing time to experiment and find out who's good and who's not. Tim also has the added factor of knowing the youth as we've seen with Nabil. I'm not saying give Tim a 5 year deal but at least see how we're doing until his initial 18 months are up before we can judge if he's the right man or not. It could prove a masterstroke, it could prove a huge failure but there's no actual guarantee that any manager could help improve or get the best out of us. So give him a chance I say, he's got off to a superb start in the league.
One thing that should be imported from Spanish and Portuguese football is the fact that, if you play in the capital city, you're pretty much guaranteed a spot in the Champions League every year.
I'm happy to see our youth players given a chance, but not at the expense of having decent squad depth for the rest of the season. Fryers isn't ready to play with any regularity at the level that we're at, so we need another left-back. We already have one, but he's out on loan. Sandro's a superb holding midfielder, but he seems to pick up injuries with alarming regularity, so we need cover and competition for his position. We don't have any from the youth system, so why sell Capoue? Holtby's yet to be given a chance in our new system and hasn't been picked behind Adebayor, plus we've got a limited number of Europa League changes we can make, so why move him on? Sherwood's supposed to be our manager. We're not bringing in a load of new players in this window, so it should be down to him to get the best out of what we've already got. Freezing out a bunch of players almost as soon as his name was on the contract is not the way to do things and it's not a good sign for the future. If he want's to keep the job beyond the end of the season, then he should start follow his job description and manage the players. Holtby, Capoue, Lamela and Chadli have only been here five minutes, yet they're all being touted for moves already. They're clearly all capable players, as is Assou-Ekotto, so why would he want to lose them without bringing in replacements? How many of them were Baldini signings, a man that he's supposed to have had problems with from the start?
