Oh absolutely, Dawson isn't and probably never will be the best defender at the club but I certainly rate him higher than Gallas and as I said, just for the moment, higher than Caulker. He puts his body on the line and since his move from Forest, has been a fantastic professional and someone I could honestly say is Spurs through and through, so it actually disgusts me at the way he's been treated. I did actually see Caulker have a word and good on him, he also shook his head as if to say "what the f*ck are we doing!?" when the ball kept on being played around at the back. Seems to be maturing with each game, still has a hell of a lot to improve on but he's certainly got a great future, just hope it's with us. Adding to the passing around at the back bit, it also doesn't help that when we finally do hit the ball upfield, it's usually from Friedel who's distribution has been pretty poor of late and therefore just tends to put us on the back foot again... Creating a somewhat vicious cycle.
I have to say that Moyes would have been my first choice for new manager. However, I would gladly have accepted Martinez. I think Levy will have a lot of explaining to do if his choice of AVB blows up in his face.
Ok, there's been a lot of opinions regarding various issues with the team/manager, both of which are to blame for the issues in our performances of late. Firstly AVB with his decisions over subs and formation. - AVB is trying to implement a style which he believes is the way forward. This "front 6" style is something that does work as we see Barcelona and Spain make it work. Barcelona on a weekly basis. The issue for AVB is that he is currently too rigid in his thinking with it and is making substitutions to suit, which seem bizarre. The manager is definitely at fault for the subs and his stubbornness to change things that aren't working. But they aren't working for a few other reasons. Going back to the "front 6" Spain/barca point I've made. - the issue with the squad is that we don't have players of this type. Barca have some of the best players in the world, but it doesn't mean other clubs can't make something similar work, with players who maybe aren't as good, but are at least of a similar style. - we're trying to do this, but we are far from having the correct personnel. It requires intelligent, quick thinking, intricate , quick footed type of players. We have some players like this, especially in Dembele. But we currently have others who are nothing like this, such as huddlestone, Livermore and even the new signings in Sig and Dempsey. All of the players mentioned are good proven players. Even though Livermore is young, we saw the signs of how promising he was last season. But none of the players have the attributes mentioned above to work in this extremely dynamic formation that is so demanding of certain skillsets within a footballer. This is what AVB needs to wake up to very quickly. The "square peg, round holes" description mentioned by several people is probably the best way of summing this up. Therefore the only thing I can fault AVB for at the moment is his stubbornness to not adjust to something different when it's clearly not working. Levy brought in AVB for a new direction, but has not given him enough to make his ideas work and its glaringly obvious. We're desperately short of the correct type of player in certain positions. The more I think about it, the more I'm confused by the signings of sig and Dempsey for the positions they are being used in. Dempsey (from what I've seen) is a player who capitalises on poaching or following up on goalmouth situations. He was there a lot for Fulham to slot the ball home and we've seen already for us this season. So why is he playing further back than he should be? It doesn't suit him. Sig is playing in the position he's used to, but the formation isn't suiting him and at the moment I can't quite put my finger on it. All I do know, is that he seems to go missing and offers nothing positive in his performances as a result. Many posters refer to the league table, the fact we're fourth ad we all need to have some "perspective". But the reality is that our football over the last 5 games at least has been utter Shiite. We're only in the top 5 because others around us aren't picking up results either. If I'm right in thinking, Everton drew -all of their 3 games in October, and again yesterday. Arsenal have not been getting the results either, so our position is being bailed out by others around us and making us look better than we are.The worrying thing is that we are playing awful too. Yesterday's result is no surprise and was going to happen at some point, but again, the table is masking the utter dross we're witnessing and is covering over the cracks for another week. Therefore the "have some perspective" crowd get to make their point for another week. But how many more lives have we got left? We're 7-8 weeks from the transfer window and we need the players we missed out on, or what ever targets we feel are correct in jan to make this formation work. However, we're actually about 11-12 weeks away from sorting that out, as we'll sign everyone on the final day of the window as usual. How can this go on for a minimum of 7-8 weeks, if not 11-12? The reality is that we have to change formation IMO, especially when considering with the injury situation which now looks worse with sandro having to go off. I don't see how we can persist. even with a fully fit squad we still look short of depth (after our best 11 for a 4-2-3-1)until we get the type of players I've mentioned above. I'm not going to put too much blame on AVB for this though. He's got a vision that he wants for us and he's trying to make it work. It's definitely possible but not with the current multitude of factors we're all aware of. 2-3 months is a long time before we can sort out the holes in the squad. I don't know how much longer we can persist with the same plan that isn't working. AVB just needs to see this and change it up. If he does this and subtly holds his hands up by showing he's willing/has to adjust, I'm not gonna get on his back. But IMO, it's the only thing he's getting wrong at present and I believe his hands are tied. - I don't know What i'd do. He's taking a lot of the pressure when So much of it is out of his hands such as injuries and not being backed properly with enough time to work with his full squad over the summer. - another frustrating conversation in itself. We can't continue like this when we're playing this badly, but the blame is by no means just avb's fault.
Roo, I agree with everything you say. Our owners have never really backed any managers recently , with a net spend of 4 million in 5 years , what do we expect?
Buy targets in the TW!....back to the same old thing, not until we get Jenas and Bentley off the wage bill, 100k/wk for the pair atm.
Well Bentley is contracted until 2014, so with that approach Notso, we've got a long time to wait in that case. We can't shift him for the life of us.
We are doing reasonably well considering we have practically broken even on transfers over last few years, and it will likely continue until the new stadium is built. The sale of Van Der Vaart summed it all up perfectly, why would any top team with aspirations of qualifying for the Champions League sell one of their very best and most important players, and fail to replace him with similar quality........ answer is Levy saw the chance to make a tidy profit on a 29 year old and viewed it as too good to turn down....... and how we could have done with VDV yesterday. I want to see Moutinho and Leandro brought in when the transfer window opens, but I reckon I have more chance of winning the lottery.
It's not just the monetary backing SF, it's the time required in the pre season with the players to get implementing ideas and the "new way of football". It's been a rushed "mess" at the end of each window, summer after summer.
If AVB is still here for next season,we need to get the player's we want or need,as early as possible,not on the last day!
No, I'm sure AVB doesn't have the ideal players for the system he prefers, and sticks so rigidly to. But then there are many managers in that situation, some adapt, and cope. Others blame everything but themselves for things not going right. The simple fact is,that AVB was comprehensively outhought and outwitted by Martinez yesterday. Wigan were not only deserved winners, they played the better football.
Which therefore means we have to try something else, based on who we have and who's available. He needs to do it now though as this part is in his control. If he doesn't, the fans won't hold out much longer (I won't be one of them), but I don't blame them.
Harry got 17 points in his first ten games, and averaged 17.1 points per ten games over four seasons and was hailed as our saviour. AVB has had exactly the same start with half his first team missing and is hailed as an incompetent inflexible idiot who makes ridiculous decisions. I don't know yet whether AVB will turn out better than Harry but he's done nothing to suggest he is worse so far.
I can't really say I agree with that. I think AVB so far looks half the manager Redknapp is. Start of the season he chose to isolate players from the squad like he did at Chelsea, one of them happening to be Dawson who's a massive fan favourite. Redknapp may have had his favourites but he never completely pushed anyone away which it seems AVB has done. Then he started off with poor team selections, choosing to play Jake and Sandro at home was something I criticised before even seeing them play and without trying to sound too big headed, I was right. I can't remember Harry ever adopting a defensive approach to the start of the game, may not have paid off but he showed the ambition that he wanted to take all three points from the offset, I don't always get that feeling with AVB. AVB chose to allow Rafa to go, he said in a press conference that he told Rafa could leave once replacements were brought in. After losing Ledley to retirement and Luka to Madrid, the last thing I wanted to see was Rafa leave, he was one of our star players and any team with aspirations of a top 4+ finish would not allow a player like that to go. Admittedly Levy also had a say so part of the blame lies with him. So far, I think it's fair to say that we have a huge Rafa whole missing in our squad now as his replacements have looked like League 2 players (I was excited when I heard Sig and then Deuce were signing... Massively let me down). Harry would never have allowed Rafa to go if he had a say in things, he knew what a gem of a player the Dutchman was and it's still hard to take knowing we let him go. AVB still persists with trying to fit players into a formation he likes, rather than playing a formation that suits our players. He may want us to play like Barcelona or his old Porto side but until we have the players to do so, it just won't work. Harry got us playing a style that had flair and a touch of English grit and it worked perfectly a lot of the time, even games we lost it's fair to say it was undeserved most of the time. I can't really work out what style AVB tries to make us play because at the moment, the football has been dreadful, even games we've won we haven't looked convincing (with Reading, Villa and 50 mins vs Utd aside). He's made defensive substitutions pretty much 90% of the time to try and maintain a 1 goal margin which is awful in my opinion, especially as we're a team who just cannot defend as a unit. He's still selecting players who are performing so badly, Walker, Gallas and Friedel have been way below par and when we have Naughton, Dawson and Lloris - All who deserve a chance - sitting on the bench, it's something that really infuriates me. I'm pretty sure (although this is an opinion and not a fact) Harry would've mixed things up by now if the players were underperforming this badly. He then topped it off on Saturday when subbing our top scorer off when we're 1-0 down. Defoe may have been quiet up to that point but you'd be stupid to take off your most lethal finisher and top scorer in the squad. Dempsey was having a mare (becoming a similar story for him) and continued to do so until the final whistle. Under Harry, you know he would've chucked the kitchen sink at the team, even if it didn't pay off you know full well Harry would've had as many strikers and attacking midfielders on the pitch as possible. I really hope AVB doesn't persist with a formation that so clearly isn't working otherwise I think we could be in trouble. Yes we sit 4th but most of the teams we've faced are that of what we should beating or at least getting a point from with Utd aside (which was an amazing achievement). We've still got a lot of good teams still to play and if we play like we have done in most of the games against them, we're going to get severely punished.
I've made some comments on the '10 games in thread' that explain why I think differently from you on most of this. But to claim that AVB has treated Dawson badly is ludicrous. His view was that he was the fifth best of our CBs and while I love Dawson's attitude I agree with this. He is definitely the least suited to AVB's style as well. That being the case it was actually in his best interests to offer him a move away. I think the same applied to Thudd if Moutinho had signed. You can't criticise him for picking square pegs in round holes and then also criticise him for trying to sell the square pegs at a good price. I remember when Harry came he complained that five players had been left on the fringes by Ramos and that this wasn't right. Nice words: but none of them actually played for us again as far as I recall. Honesty usually pays off as a manager even if it leaves to uncomfortable interactions at first.
I have always maintained that no incoming manager should be expected to select a player he has inherited who he doesn't rate and would never have signed in the first place. This was why I alays backed Harry's stance on the likes of Dos Santos etc. But when this policy is to the detriment of the team, then obviously this policy becomes questionable and this is where I find us with the Dawson situation. He has treated Daws shabbily, because he endorsed his appointment as club captain and also because there is no way on current form should Gallas be picked ahead of Dawson. I have no issue with people who are blaming Friedel for Southampton's goal last week and also yesterdays goal, but if you look closely at both goals, it is clear that Gallas is also culpable on both goals. Whatever Dawson's limitations, he has to be a better choice at the moment than Gallas.
But who does fit AVB's style? Because so far so many players are out of form and look lost at times. If AVB supposedly likes to have ball playing defenders with pace, then why is Gallas picked ahead of Dawson? Neither are blessed with the pace aspect but Dawson has a far better passing range. Gallas is way past his peak, Dawson is now entering it. A logical decision would be to select Dawson over Gallas. I don't see what Gallas offers over Dawson bar the experience of winning major trophies. Leadership? Both are leaders. Pace? No. Passing ability? No. Aerial ability? No. Back when Gallas was in his prime, it would've been a no brainer to select him but he is most certainly not better than Dawson at present. 90% of games now he pulls up clutching his hamstring, the last thing we need to see constantly is our captain and supposedly first choice CB constantly pulling up, especially when like Spurcat has mentioned he's been at fault for goals as it is. And I do think Dawson has been treated badly, it's certainly not a ludicrous suggestion. Before the season had started, AVB mentioned that Dawson would likely be/ remain captain of the club. Why make a statement like that to only then cast him aside and pretty much transfer list him? When you name your captain, the general idea is that he'll be the one to lead the team out on a regular basis. We complain that players have no loyalty and yet a player who's given everything to this club, played with his heart on the line and always signed extensions with the intention to see them out, gets shafted out the team. I do remember Harry giving players squad numbers that were cast aside by Ramos. They barely did feature bar the odd appearance in the Carling Cup (KPB was one of them) but in fairness, that's a credible thing to do. The players that Ramos cast aside must've been in a horrible place, they knew they wouldn't get a minute of first team football and were probably isolated from the rest. At least Redknapp made them feel part of a team, even if he didn't give them much more of a chance on the pitch than Ramos did, it shows he knew how to handle players better and it showed why Harry was always credited with good man management skills. AVB has come in with a similar attitude to Ramos - harder training sessions, diets for certain players and choosing the players he wants while casting aside those he feel won't fit his "system". We all know how it panned out with Juande, just seems like deja vu with AVB all over again.
So is JJ, we gave him an extension, he was gone in the summer as a free agent...Levy can't give anything away for free!
Dawson and Gallas are similar in defensive skills in my opinion. I think the point about Dawson re Gallas is that Dawson is the king of the long diagonal ball which rarely works, Gallas has the skill to take some time to pick a short pass and if the ball is played back to him from midfield we're less likely to lose it. We've tried the English way and we need something different if we are going to push on and become regular champions league contenders. AVB is a risk but he might turn out to be the solution and if he isn't we've lost very little because Harry really wasn't getting us any further.
Dawson's long diagonal ball is often used against him by his critics, but it's a fact that every manager he has played under in his time with us, has never discouraged this tactic, so it's reasonable to assume the managers are happy with this. The game yesterday was crying out for this long pass, but instead we had the tedious playing it along the back line and then back to Brad crap. It's no wonder Bale looks pissed off half the time, he's rarely given a ball to run on to. Dawson's long diagonal ball is an option. Gallas yesterday barely played a forward ball all afternoon against bloody Wigan even when we were losing !!
Just as a further point on this long diagonal ball, this is the very thing which is finding out Kyle Walker. He is very weak at defending this ball. One of the main reasons this has been highlighted this season is because in the past, this same tactic has been used (mainly because Walker can only play the way he is facing), but has been cut out by Dawson. Gallas consistently has the same problems with this ball as Walker does and still AVB fails to address it.
