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Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Manchester United

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by PleaseNotPoll, Apr 9, 2021.

  1. Alfie Conn

    Alfie Conn Well-Known Member

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    I just had a look at Twitter and it's a massive **** storm , won't go near that force day or two
     
    #221
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  2. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    Oh I think I can name a couple on this site...
     
    #222
  3. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    The toxic, no good **** has to go...

    please log in to view this image
     
    #223
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  4. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    If these players weren't failing under Poch (and now Jose), Poch would still be here.

    There's a large core who are just an absolute stain to this football club and have been here for far too long. It's been made worse that practically Poch's signings from 2018 to his sacking and Jose's since he's been here have all largely been **** too. So we've added **** with **** and hoped for something different. What Jose hasn't been able to do though is extract any extra from these poor/ average players that Poch was able to do in his first 4 or so years at the club, Poch was able to get players playing beyond their talent level but once that magic of his died, the football got worse, he got sacked and we got Jose in who's been unable to extract anything from anyone barring Kane, who was probably the last person we actually needed to go up a level.

    Jose's been a dreadful appointment, his selections, tactics, substitutions and squad management has been a disaster but there's also a group of players stealing a living and until they **** off we'll still suffer for their inadequacies.

    I won't be happy 'til I see the back of Dier, Sanchez, Toby, Aurier, Winks Sissoko, Dele and Lamela, as well as Jose. And yes, I'm fully aware I likely won't be happy for a long time.
     
    #224
  5. BajanSpur

    BajanSpur Well-Known Member

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    He's been terrible ever since the rookie press started big-in him up Months ago.
     
    #225
  6. No Kane No Gain

    No Kane No Gain Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't a concensus here but Jose = trophies and possibly taking us to the next level seemed to be the view I got from elsewhere. It wasn't so much social media as the pubs and the bars at NWHL tbh, there was quite a bit of buzz about us getting Jose and the idea that it was a coup that we'd got him. It was our best chance to get Toby, Jan and Eriksen to stay.

    I'm not really interested in going through player by player on transfers but I do want to pick up on the Vinicius one. The same was said about multiple other players and none of it's changed anything significant.

    As fans we focus on the things we think we can see. We see the formations in our media when we get starting line up news. We see players highlighted in punditry. We control all these things in games, whether FPL or FIFA, where it's nice and simple. It's far more complicated than that, which is why none of us are getting the big money that goes into analytics these days. We see Sanchez play a bad pass and see it as an individual being rubbish, rather than a failure of a plan, or even a failure to plan.

    I don't think Jose's bad at what he does, there are areas that he excels in but they're just not as relevent anymore. Being able to drill a defence to play defensive football and counter isn't much use when every side can press as a team, and when everyone figures out how to defend against your counters.

    Mostly though, I just think the bloke's a prick and always has been.
     
    #226
  7. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    Nice goal by Spurs (sublime touch by Kane) .
     
    #227
  8. No Kane No Gain

    No Kane No Gain Well-Known Member

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    Yup, the Aurier one. McTomniay's the only one you can make any claim for imo and I suspect he swerved that as he likes to claim he helped make him.
     
    #228
  9. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    He would be a distant (bad) memory if fans had been at games during his tenure.
     
    #229
  10. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    This was covered by WindyCOYS on Twitter (which I posted in The way forward earlier today): teams have worked out how to nullify our counter attacking threat by smothering the out ball, and since they can't relieve pressure by getting the ball out to Hojbjerg (who has consistently been our out ball all season) that means our CBs are either
    a.) Misplacing passes as they try and create an out ball
    b.) Aimlessly hoofing it down the pitch
    c.) Trying to play out of trouble

    All of which have the same effect: the opponents get the ball, the only difference is they are getting it either in the middle third when we hoof, the final third when we misplace passes, or on the edge of the penalty area when we try and play it out

    And here's the biggest problem with this: I've been saying we've had issues with our out ball all season as a cursory check of any pass map shows how predictable our out ball is, for example today Dier's out balls were Hojbjerg or Aurier while Rodon's were Hojbjerg or Reguilon, so all Man Utd needed to do was put somebody on Hojbjerg and then any transition from defence to attack would be funnelled to the FBs, at which point any attacks would have either been down the flanks which would have been anticipated or the attack would have to move sideways to get the ball to Lo Celso or Ndombele

    And what really makes this unacceptable is Solskjaer has pretty much said the same, as all they had to do was watch a video of us play and a plan was relatively straightforward
     
    #230
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  11. No Kane No Gain

    No Kane No Gain Well-Known Member

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    I find it weird that you think the manager's been a disaster yet the players are a huge part of the blame too. Jose could take over Pep's Barcelona and make them look ****e if he tells the players to play like the sides he does others. He whinges about the quality of the players because he doesn't know how to coach what he has.

    As for the list of players, I think we just support our cub in very different ways.
     
    #231
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  12. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    It's pretty simple really, we've held onto poor players for far too long, made numerous poor signings and have a manager who's been unable to extract anything from the team whilst deploying woeful tactics and selections that further exploit them.

    Support Spurs however you want but if you think a third manager is going to magically improve those I listed then all I can say is I praise your optimism. Though I'll feel for you when reality hits.
     
    #232
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  13. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    I've always subscribed to the view that a lot of football management is emperor's new clothes. Right now we have a classic example of it going on at Spurs. We have had managers who clearly have a good knowledge of players currently in the game and their attributes and how they fit into a team. Some also show the ability to adjust their management style to suit the (very expensive) individuals they are dealing with. MOST do not and are clearly not worth £15000 pa never mind the fortunes that are doled out to them in a game that has ridiculous amounts of money sloshing around in it. Compared to most high powered jobs football management is clearly a doddle but when we have the blind leading the blind it's only the fans who suffer. Even if I was local to Spurs I would not lay out more than £10 to watch this pathetic show of how to play football at the highest level .
     
    #233
  14. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    Here's a question I've seen asked that's possibly worth repeating: are teams setting up against us with the belief that it doesn't matter if we go ahead in the first half, as we'll only conspire to hand over the game with a nice little ribbon on it for the entire second half?
     
    #234
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  15. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    This makes me feel so much better knowing I'll be (stupidly) renewing my ST next season <laugh>.
     
    #235
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  16. No Kane No Gain

    No Kane No Gain Well-Known Member

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    If you think Rose, Walker and Vertonghen wouldn't have been on that list, or if you think Dawson(would have also been on the list) deserved to get slated like some of the stuff we get about our players then that's you. I wrote the last sentence after deleting a bunch cos it feels like we're miles apart on this but in most ways I've always found a similarity in our support but on this we definitely diverge on the extremity of opinion.
     
    #236
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  17. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    I hope this don't come across as a dig but I honestly do not see an anti JM agenda.
    He's been our manager for 17 months and tbh I can only think of a handful of games that I have enjoyed watching.

    He has had 3 transfer windows and has brought in 9 players yet our team and squad are way weaker than when he started.
    He also gave Dier and Alderweireld new contracts.
    The only consistency I have seen is a selection of bizarre team choices which fail from Norwich (fa cup 2020) saw him choose Vorm in goal even though he hadn't played a match in 18 months. And predictably he screwed up for their goal.
    The constantly choosing of Sanchez and or Dier even though the WHOLE OF FOOTBALL can see they are a liability.
    Then there is the insistence on playing defensive, dire football that has left us with a trail of truly appalling performances ... off the top of my head
    I remember...
    Last season
    Chelsea (both games)
    United (a)
    Southampton (a)
    Liepzig (CL away)
    Sheffield United (a)
    Bournemouth (a)
    Everton (h)
    Palace (a)
    Watford (a)
    Wolves (a)
    Burnley (a)
    Norwich (h fa cup)

    This season
    Everton (h)
    WBA (a)
    Burnley (a)
    Chelsea (h)
    Antwerp (EL a)
    Liverpool (h)
    Leicester (h)
    Newcastle (a)
    West Ham (a)
    Arsenal (a)
    Wolves (a)
    Palace (a)
    Brighton (a)
    Fulham (h and a)
    Man City (a)
    EL loss away.

    These were bloody awful to watch.

    Then there's the 18 dropped points from leading positions this season.

    I made no pretence at not wanting him but he has made every fear I had a reality.

    No idea how Levy has not sacked him yet.
     
    #237
  18. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    Our defensive ethos in all of its glory. Or: Why individual errors are masking group errors.

    mu.png

    The first frame shows the moments before United's equaliser. Here, I and many others laid into Reguilon (he is already a yard behind the line 3 passes before the goal) for playing Cavani onside. This is the individual error. But look at the picture and the group error is horrifying. Bruno Fernandes has already laid the ball back to Fred and has actually starting retreating back to his own goal. He does this presumably to draw one of our CBs deeper and create space for Cavani/Rashford to exploit. He needn't have bothered. You see, out of 9 outfield Spurs players in this frame, the only one not looking at the ball is Lucas. He is watching Maguire in case of a late overlap to bring Shaw into the game. Aurier notices Fernandes' run, bizarrely about 2 seconds after he has already passed to Fred. This leaves a gap between Dier and Lucas. But all said and done, there are still 8 active Spurs players in frame charged to deal with 3 active United players. Because everyone is watching the ball, Reguilon fails to notice he is a yard too deep, Dier fails to notice Cavani is behind him. Aurier fails to notice that Fernandes' run was a decoy.

    That is the first catalogue of errors. The second is the positioning of our players in a crucial moment. In this frame, Hojbjerg is playing as a LB, Reguilon has moved far too central, leaving Rodon confused as to who is meant to be picking up Rashford, Son is playing as a DM for some unknown reason, Aurier has been dragged into a CM position and Lucas is playing at RB.

    The third catalogue of errors, which you won't see from a freeze-frame, is how half-arsed and static Lo Celso, Ndombele, Son and Lucas are in defending this situation. Now to United's second goal...

    mu2.jpg

    Here again, Spurs' active players clearly outnumber United's (5 against 3). Once again, almost everyone is watching the ball rather than watching for runners. Dier is the notable exception here. He is watching Pogba. And because he is watching Pogba, he has (once again) forgotten that one of the deadliest strikers in European football history is right behind him. He shouldn't need to be watching Pogba as Sissoko (who is literally loitering around pointlessly) should be up Pogba's arse, cutting off that out ball. Aurier is once again out of positon, 2 yards ahead of the rest of his line. Son is playing as a LWB this time, Hojbjerg as a LW.

    So yes, it is easy to blame Dier for failing to pick up Cavani. But to do so, we have to ask why Pogba was allowed to wander into our box unopposed (Dier has one eye on him the entire time), why Cavani was 2 yards goal side of Aurier, what Sissoko was doing, why so many players are out of position and why numerical supremacy seems to mean nothing when we're under pressure.
     
    #238
  19. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Dawson was loved by this club because he always gave everything, he would've taken a bullet for our badge if it were possible, if you think some of these players who I and many others want out have been giving everything like he did and thus deserve the same level of respect Daws had then I think we definitely view things differently. Ultimately though Dawson had to be sold as he was no longer good enough, that's football.

    Poch was brilliantly ruthless in his first couple years. He must have sold around 10 first team players who he (and most fans) deemed not good enough. Where he went wrong towards the end was losing that ruthlessness by persisting with too many who'd been underperforming and a number of those are still here 18 months into Mourinho's tenure.

    Whoever our new manager ends up being needs to have that ruthlessness Poch initially had. A solid 7-8 at the very least needs to be binned. If they think otherwise I'd almost be certain they'll be out of a job within 18 months of their appointment.
     
    #239
  20. bigsmithy9

    bigsmithy9 Well-Known Member

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    Goodbye Harry......or will a miracle happen and we win the league cup[ or whatever they call the bloody thing!!!!)
     
    #240

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