Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Manchester United

4 games into Jose’s reign..he’s won 3 of them...I’m not too worried about Jose. He’s an intelligent man and he’s feeling his way through our squad...he will get rid of the dross.


If we think he came in to turn turds into diamonds then we are wrong. He needs backing and that’s Levy’s job.


Part of me thinks he’s picking Winks because he really wants to win the fans over and pick the home boy...personally I think we need the ruthless Jose...he’s been very tame.

 

Is this Jose or his brother ?.

 

I think the truth is somewhere in between these points. As you and most of us pointed out when Poch got the chop, the issues with the squad ran far deeper than whoever happened to be in the dugout. The harsh truth is that none of Rose, Winks, Aurier, Toby, Jan, Sissoko and Dier are top 4 quality. Some of them used to be but have now faded, others never were and never will be. The overhaul we need is beyond the ability of any one manager to fix. But Poch was seemingly at fault for making the problem worse by alienating most of those players to the point where they plummeted from average to either dog ****e or non-existent. Jose is picking Winks because he genuinely needs as many semi-decent players on board as possible, until such a time that they can be replaced.

Jose is taking the dainty tiptoe approach because his remit is to eek as much as possible out of that bunch while there is still a chance of top 4. Poch by contrast appeared to have given up on both top 4 and the bulk of the squad, seemingly ignoring the fact that we haven't got the money or wage structure to implement the changes he wanted as quickly as he wanted them. I accept that as a justified reason for sacking him.

I hope that Rose's slow but steady un-personing under Jose is the first step toward the ruthlessness you rightly call for. What frustrates me is that we aren't seeing much of Gio or Sess but I can't see how they'd be worse than the current options at LB and CM.

Today was his first setback but the defensive vulnerabilities have been there since day 1. Ultimately there will be games at this level where it just doesn't click in attack. In these situations, conceding an average of 2 goals per game means we will inevitably lose. Think back to all those narrow wins last season where we were abysmal in midfield and attack but scraped a goal and shut up shop. We won 1-0 against Cardiff, West Ham, Burnley, Palace, Newcastle and Brighton. 18 points simply by dint of the fact we were able to keep a clean sheet. The current shower of dross wouldn't have got more than 6 points out of all that.

 

I thought when Gazza had early odd games for us,we'd unearthed a diamond.What's happened?
I also think Jose has to play all his players at the moment to see who he wants to keep and who to get rid of. So mid table looks like our destiny this season...….unless something happens in the cups...……!?

 

Jose saying he hasn’t really learned anything from the defeat

In other words

The weak links remain and repeat their mistakes and don’t he know it

Up to Levy to support him in replacing the dross

 

Why has Wanyama not been played yet ?? Is he now fully Ledley-esque ??
etc etc.

The season compass does not lie.
Getting the same end results as Pochettino was in the end days, while worsening
the defence, are not the signs of a manager who has a system or nous to
collectively squeeze every last drop of quality from the current squad.

 

Our defence is a disaster area. Aurier is an walking accident, Sanchez, who I had high hopes for, looks increasingly vulnerable to being pressurised and more often than not will make a crucial mistake. Alderweireld is past his best and is making mistakes and missing things he wouldn’t have 2-3 years ago. Vertonghen, still very capable but coming to the end of his best days. Rose - nuff said, Davis, better defensively, but adds very little going forward. Not really up to the standard required.

And then, of course, there’s the non existent defensive midfielder in front of them. The only one, assuming Wanayama is finished, that even does a passable imitation of a good DM, is Dier. But he’s either injured, not match fit, or just completely off form.

Time to get your wallet out Mr Levy.

 

He’s been here for 4 games

You expect too much if you expect Jose to sort that **** out...the personnel is not up to the required standards in the long to medium term. They show glimpses of what the new manager can bring before slumping into their de fault mode.

Let’s see if Levy backs Jose

I’m sure his remit was not to turn turds into Gems....Wanyama has not played because he’s been dog **** for a bit longer than the rest...him being past it is probably so obvious in training that he doesn’t even get a start in this trial and error period

We need to accept that we blew our Golden period under Poch instead of blaming Jose for not working miracles after 4 games.

 

Sissoko isn't really a DM though. I still think our squad is more suited to 343 with the first choice (excluding players who are out of contract or want out) being;
Lloris
Foyth Sanchez Davies
Sissoko Ndombele Lo Celso Sessegnon
Dele Kane Son
Reserves:
Gazzaniga
Tanganga Dier Carter-Vickers
Walker-Peters Skipp Winks Georghiu
Lucas Parrott Lamela

Add another CB, WB and CM to that and it isn't too shabby.

 

A lot of the issues from last night boiled down to one structural weakness

Aurier was the primary out ball for the defence, which is perfectly reasonable as he's an attacking fullback and has picked up a few assists in recent weeks - but the issue is that he needs his winger to cover him when he's heading up field, but Lucas simply didn't do that at all last night which necessitated Sissoko having to come out wide to cover the space, which ended up leaving Winks exposed in midfield, which is a particularly dangerous thing to do as he's not press-resistant in the way Ndombele or Sissoko are hence we got overrun in midfield

If the defensive side of Lucas' game was more in line with Lamela's (or, for a better comparison, Aaron Lennon's) then Sissoko wouldn't have been drifting our wide and Winks wouldn't have been so isolated, which would have given us some protection from Aurier having one of those games where he thought he was Lionel Messi

For further evidence, look at the gap through the middle last night

 

This reflects my view of last night.

Playing 4 up top, a midfield 2 of Winks/Sissoko and Aurier at right back was just nuts. It was highly unlikely to work and we were wide open for United's youthful pace. Given that one of Mourinho's touted as a tactical genius, that was highly predictable and very disappointing.

Throw in that we're still sleepwalking through the first half an hour of games and Dele apart, there really hasn't been a great deal of improvement. That has to change. We've got other options - Ndombele, Foyth, Lo Celso, Sessegnon, Skip, etc.and over December, I want to see them on the pitch because what we're doing right now isn't working....and it hasn't for some time.

 

Jose will have to make purchases...I’m sure he will name the names he wants to Levy

 

If Jose came in and made wholesale changes...he would have got lambasted for that...especially if it went wrong. He’s probably trying to do things at a pace and understanding of our fan base who are still hung up on Poch. Probably avoiding adding fuel to that fire and letting the collective display their weak mentality and average form to the Spurs faithful before he gives them the chop.

When he was asked about being impressed at scoring 10 goals in his first 3 games, he replied ‘and 6 conceded’ with a coy snigger and backtracking comments which suggested to me that he’s pissed off and is fully aware but currently he’s mothering our players weak minds. Plus he can’t afford to alienate players and chop the core if there are doubts as to if he is going to be backed by Levy.

 

Two things absolutely need to happen in January

1.) Sign a DM: Dier is miles off the pace and Wanyama is finished, so this absolutely needs addressing because using EWinks or Sissoko as ersatz DMs does not work

2.) Sort out the Lo Celso/Eriksen situation: on paper this is easy, accept a bid for Eriksen while exercising the clause on Lo Celso's loan to tie him up, but if transfer business was done on paper we'd have got rid of Danny Rose in the last two years...

 

I definitely feel like we’d have looked less vulnerable with Sissoko or Lamela playing RW instead of Lucas, and someone else in CM to partner Winks. If we’re going to play Aurier at RB, and especially if we push him as far forward as Jose wants to, then that right flank needs help.

Just generally though I agree that Winks is definitely best in a 4-3-3. Ideally you’d be looking at a composition of:
- a DM, literally any DM
- Ndombele or Winks or Sissoko (someone to progress the ball through passing, physicality or a combination of the two)
- Alli or GLC (plays close to the striker with the ball, presses or drops in without)

With a front 3 of Son/Kane/Lamela that gives us tremendous work rate up top and IMO good balance through the side. Issues with the back 4 remain though and we need a solid DM to make it work. I think this is what Jose is envisioning for us.

 

If you believe that as of now :

1. PL top 4 with this squad is a write-off, and Jose has bears no blame if it goes so

2. Levy similarly agrees on #1, and has told Jose to go full Chelsky 2012
and focus solely on attempting to win the CL

then fine.

So what then are your reasonable expectations of Jose and the current squad come
end of season ??

 

Personally I have also written off top 4 through the league...our first 12 games have contributed to that...who knows how we will evolve throughout the season. If Jose is alienating the new players and making the same mistakes as Poch then it will raise my eyebrow but I’m not expecting him to turn our season around in Roy of the Rovers fashion.

I would like us to go all out for the CL too...who thought we could get to the final last year?

My expectations of Jose this season are to cull the squad and work on getting rid of the weak mentality that blankets the whole club.

 

Plus...**** recruitment is not on Jose

A **** scouting network and zero ****s given attitude towards building the first team is what will see to us getting nowhere.

This doesn’t mean Poch didn’t have to go...unfortunately he had been burnt out from Levy dragging his feet for a good few years in the transfer market coupled with our stadium move and all the drama surrounding it


Now it is Jose’s turn to find out how ENIC roll

 

IT becomes clearer to me now why Pochettino was reluctant to play Lucas from the start. He just does not contribute defensively and last night Aurier gets blames when in reality it is poor backing from Lucas. As Pochettino usually played him, Lucas is a good explosive attacking sub, at least he is in PL games. Sissoko can't do everything on his own but he tried last night he was everywhere and of course he can't be so we were light in midfield until Ndombele came on and that is where we needed control. I don't think our squad is as bad as some of you seem to think, yes we were outplayed last night but that was because United are far from being the hopeless side that many seem to think. They were very fired up last night and put in a performance that any team would struggle to cope with, just look at their results at OT this season if you doubt that.
United 4 Chelsea 0
United 1 Arsenal 1
United 1 Leicester 0
United 1 Liverpool 1

 

For me, the point of appointing Mourinho is that he will make the big calls with impunity. I appreciate that it's easier when you take over in the summer because you can get players out, if you don't want them and buy replacements.

I get the impression that he's seen us as his next job for a while now. He's obviously had Rose's card marked, likewise Big Vic isn't anywhere near the team. If players have reached the end of the road, then tell them that you want to try something else and see what happens. If they're pro's they'll take it.

I don't get making Eriksen our first change. If he was playing at top form, then I'd wear it but he isn't. Lo Celso doesn't have any PL experience but giving him 5 minutes every game isn't going to change anything.......and we really, really need things to change.

The slow starts haven't altered and defensively, we're still a mess. We need to sort out the right side and we need 3 in the midfield, other than against teams who are just going to sit back for 90 minutes.

If we play that line-up at Wolves, we'll get roundly beaten again...and currently, the answer isn't putting Eric Dier back in the line-up.