Tottenham Hotspur v Internazionale Match Thread

No doubt that he made a big mistake with tactics, set-up, just about everything, last night. The acid test of any thoughtful coach is to learn from those mistakes, and to make sure that they are never repeated.

He got out of jail last night. He may not be so lucky next time.

 

Back in the summer when he was appointed, we frequently heard the term "tactical genius" and indeed it was pointed out on many occasions to us doubters, that here was a definite improveent on Redknapp. We were also pretty much instructed to shut up until the end of the season and only then could we legitimately voice any opinion, because it was anticipated by then we would be comfortably back in the CL etc etc. and we wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

So, we pretty much toed the party line and apart from the occasional mild rant, have watched how the season has panned out. However, there have been a few occasions recently when it has been acclaimed in post match coments that AVB pretty much gets his tactics right. I never did get my head round how a team can give an average performance and win when the star player bangs in a wonder goal in the last minute, yet somehow that means the manager has got his tactics spot on.

I also had a smile a week or so back when AVB was quoted as saying he didn't take too much notice of the stats. It seemed to be favourably recieved on here, but I did wonder if Harry had said such a thing then he would have been accused of living in the dark ages.

I personally questioned his tactical nous when he didn't overcome the likes of WBA and Norwich and although that was in the early days, there was the Leeds debacle, something I haven't recovered from yet.

So, you will see I don't think it's unreasonable to continue to have doubts about these highly acclaimed tactics of AVB's. After last night's shambles, I think it's only natural. I don't know if Boss was being 'sarcy' or not, onlt he can tell us that. But I agree with him that I also have had my reservations all along and I don't want to be reined in everytime I air them, as you appear to be trying to do here.

 

Yes, I know they are all professional footballers, but............

to put up with the level of racist abuse that was directed at our black players, Ade in particular, must make it difficult to focus 100% and perform to ones true ability.

Gallas has given an interview explaining just how bad it was last night and that players contemplated walking off. It didn't come across like this on the broadcast, possibly deliberately muted, but if it was that bad I think that the club really needs to make a stand - and not just a by-word from AVB.

Edit: correction - Gallas was talking in general NOT that our players considered it last night. However, the chants were clearly a big issue last night that notwithstanding.

 

Maybe you heard that outside of Not606 but if you search on this board for that term it pretty much exclusively brings up posts by users using the term sceptically about AVB or talking about how our 'Arry's no "tactical genius". If it's based on stuff written outside of this board then I don't understand there's such a need to keep bringing it up. Pundits have been comparing Bale to Ronaldo but I wouldn't expect that to be used on here as a stick to beat him with when he has a bad game. I'm not here to try and tell anyone how they should feel about AVB but the use of the term 'tactical genius' in the way that it's been used on here all season does annoy me when I see it.

I've never intentionally tried to prevent anyone from giving their opinion on him even if it's negative. All I was trying to do is add my opinion on how far the criticism should go with AVB on this performance or anyother. I treated 'Arry exactly the same which is why I'm not judging AVB too severely on a few games.

 

I was as disappointed as any Spurs fan with last night's performance. There were a few things that I wasn't happy about - AVB's lack of tactical preparation, Holtby's indifferent performance, Ade's general uselessness (despite his goal), Walker's continuing defensive errors, etc. However, there were also a few positives to be had - we won, despite playing so badly, Parker was magnificent (in my opinion), and Lennon, when he came on, reminded us all just how underrated he has been since Bale's rise to glory.

You will all know the doubts I had about AVB's appointment, and that I thought he was a clown for persevering with that 4-4-1-1 formation that reaped absolutely nothing for us, at the start of the season, but he has gradually won me round. The major part of my disappointment is that he got things so hopelessly wrong, last night, as I really do want him to succeed for us. However, I am going to refrain from making any attack on him, as I want to see how he responds in our next few league fixtures. If he's the right man for us, he will galvanise the squad to renew their efforts, and he will re-instill some of the discipline that we've shown for most of the season.

The fact that we progressed to the Quarters last night, despite such a dreadful performance, means that AVB (and most of the players) have the luxury of being able to chalk this one up to experience, without any damage having been done, provided that the necessary lessons have been learned.

 

A few weeks back we were being linked to a slew of defenders (Sebastien Corchia, Stefan de Vrij, Bruno Martins Indi) and a few of us were wondering why.

After some of Walker's performances this season, I just wanted to issue a reminder that Corchia plays in the same position, and de Vrij can be deployed at right back...

 

YV, no issue with you at all, but yes I believe he acts naive and yes I can make sarky remarks about him being a tactical genius, especially when I hear crap about Redknapp, who gets slaughtered for ridiculous (unfounded) stuff, such as "never rated bale" "never knew what to do with bale", I know its not relevant as such, but I find it tiring when I hear Avb over praised when he doesn't deserve it and then former managers attacked.

However this doesn't mean I don't see positives in Avb, as I do (honest), but I try and call it as I see it and since the start of the season I have always doubted him as being this tactical genius, which many have claimed he is and yes Avb got it wrong yesterday, all managers can get aspects wrong, again thats not in doubt, even great managers like Fergie get it wrong.

As I mentioned before, the issues are long standing from this season, and during our 12 match unbeaten run I have been unhappy with certain aspects, rather then "we're winning so everything is ok", which is why maybe I seem to be more harsh, as its often tricky to debate issues when we're winning.

Over the course of the season I have found I have warmed to Avb, slightly.......ok a wee bit (non sarky tone) and have praised him for aspects, such as the defence (which while let us down the other night, in general has made me feel confident).

Anyhow I won't admit to being a huge AVB fan/believer, yet (as I would be lying), but I don't see any issue in that, as there are many fans on here who believe hes a breath of fresh air, just contrasting views which sometimes clash.

 

^^^^

 

OS I think your comments about being instructed to shut up and toeing the party line are unfair.

There is no 'party line' on here re AVB or Redknapp or anything else for that matter. Everyone is free to express their opinion. The fact that posters might say they don't want to hear something from another poster is an opinion and just that, nothing more. Sure one poster has had his posts deleted for 'going on' about about a particular subject but that is an exception and one that I'm sure you support.

We draw the line at personal insults from one to another and obvious WUMS but apart from that everyone is free to provide their point of view. For example you and I disagree about Redknapp and we have spent hundred of words debating the issue, in other areas we enjoy a lot of agreement, it's what a forum like this is all about.

Please feel entirely free to express your views, your opinions are valued highly by the users of this board.

 

Off the top of my head there are only 3 managers I rate as tactical genius's, or at least bloody good at it, and that's Clough, Venables and Mourinho. AVB has a long way to go to be on a par with them IMO. What I do like about him is his apparent openess to learning from his mistakes. For example his view change on Dawson, his adoption of 442 following the Arsenal game, and his readiness to accept some of the findings of Redknapp on Bale. I think his tactics are not cast in stone, he watches games very closely and adapts. The early season conceding of late goals is another area which he appears to have addressed. I am not ready to say AVB is a great Spurs manager, not yet, but I am fairly happy with his progress so far and hope that given time, and some luck, he might become one.

 

I do agree with the gist of what you say, certain things have been addressed, but I'm not sure you can apply the 'watch closely and adapt' to Thursday. I said in a piece elsewhere I can handle the odd selection issue and dodgy sub, not a problem, its part of how you learn, but how many mistakes were in that game, must be at least half a dozen managerial ones, some repeated, I cannot comprehend what he was thinking. Like I said I can let go many things on the grounds you mention, but some of what I'm seeing is worrying still. I did not like his interview after blaming the players mindset...who's fault is that, the approach to the game buck stops with him. He also blamed the momentum of Inter after scoring...now there's a surprise!! I know 'what' I saw Andre, I want to know why.

 

I think if you start out with the wrong setup as he probably did, it becomes more difficult. His subs of Lennon for Livermore and Holtby for Defoe was an attempt to reverse the flow and I didn't see much wrong with the choices. To reverse the momentum that Inter had was very difficult once it had started, but I am really talking about how, hopefully, he will use that defeat in future games. We will see.

 

I didn't see the interview, or your edit , but it's difficult to shift 'we are 3 goals up' attitude in a players mind for the player himself, never mind anybody else. It was a poor night all round apart from the away goal and Spurs start to extra time so I am not trying to defend AVB on that. The proof of the pudding will be in future games, as I think you have already said in a previous post.

 

No probably about it Spurf, 442 away with a 3-0 lead???, 451 or some variant all day long, control the MF, our MF were dropping back, leaving bigger MF holes, to help the CB's who had two FB's playing like wing backs...basic, basic stuff Spurf.

Anyway, games done now, Bales back, all eyes on Fulham.

 

Except if you are trying to counter the mindset (it's won) by putting the team out to win this as well. Maybe trying too hard to be clever is the crime he commited. Yes Fulham, and your prediction is?

 

The one positive from Thursday manager-wise - and this may be stretching a point to some - was the way the team came out for the extra time. Considering the momentum of the tie was totally with Inter, they came out positively, with a more attacking game-plan that brought its rewards. The legs started to go in the 2nd period as we know, but that initial burst suggests that the manager was able to motivate the players in a tricky situation.

 

Fair point, but most of the team aren't exactly novices at 2 leg football matches and the scenario's that throws up, but experience in such situations is handy.

 

When it all comes down to it,clever manager or not,if they are fortunate to have game winners like Uncle Percy,Bale and others,it makes them look brilliant (and a very good defence makes them look even better!)
Without these game winners,managers look pretty pathetic.

Look at all the previous trophy winners by all teams and you will find they were fortunate to have the great goalscorers!

Fergie always makes sure he buys very good goal scorers,whatever the cost,and he wins.........(plus some dirty defenders in his case!)

 

Where have you ever heard that about Redknapp? I don't know what to say anymore because I've never read that on here or in the media.

Again I repeat that I don't know where the AVB is a "tactical genius" is coming from, yes there were many saying that he'd improve us tactically but I find the exaggeration to genius cheap. There were also those that felt he'd upset players, was arrogant and well out of his depth, I just don't understand fans that want to focus on the negative with him let alone have a sly dig at him. Ghoddle annoyed people by wasting no opportunity to knock Friedel and bring up his inferiority to Lloris and I don't see a world of difference to what I've been talking about with AVB.

I've no problem with you or any of the others that may feel included in what I've been talking about, it's all about debate and discussion on here and me airing an annoyance is no less up for discussion/disagreement than anyother.

 

Ah, here we go again. So anyone who actually dares quote the very phrase used "tactical genius",is now being "cheap" ?? What I think is "cheap" is the increasing number of excuses being offered for AVB's tatical naviety and his continuing baffling use of substitutes. Blimey, I even read someone saying give him credit for motivating the players for extra time !!!!

You seem to struggle with the right of other posters to dislike our current manager and you seem to struggle with the concept of someone saying so on here. I am not going to say anymore on this matter because I actually object quite strongly to 'against the flow' comments being labelled as cheap by someone who frankly should know better.

I wish you goodnight and hope you enjoy the game tomorrow.