And how many goals have we scored over the last five seasons from a cross by an orthodox winger. I bet AVB knows that and you don't.
We're playing plenty of decisive passes when the game's stretched because it's easy, less defenders and our fast attackers running forward makes it simple for the man on the ball. When we build up slowly their team has the time to get into position and we have inverted wingers cutting inside with only difficult attacking passes and shots on which is why we end up taking so many long shots and passing it backwards or sideways. I'm tired of waiting for the way we play to just click into place. No one knows how long it will take, how quickly we'll improve from there or if it will ever happen and in the meantime we're ignoring a perfectly good style of play that suits our players and works better against the opposition. Yes it involved losing the ball more often but possession doesn't equal goals or points, it doesn't even mean the team is playing better football.
I'd imagine we've scored a fair few. You miss the point though, I'm not saying the way AVB wants us to play is wrong, I'm just saying it's not working now. Were you honestly pleased with how we played for the first 25 minutes ladst night? It looked to me like we were getting overrun by one of the worst sides in the league. The most important thing is that our best chances come from playing at pace and we seem to play faster football with at least one winger on their correct side.
You're missing the point here as even if a direct cross from a winger doesn't result directly in a goal (i.e winger cross to a striker to head or volley), the space opened up by wing play opens up many more goal scoring opportunities and Bale & Lennon regularly caused us to score goals, even if they weren't directly through assists. Man City are a good example of a team that play with wingers, Navas couldn't be more of a classic winger, and that's from a foreign manager who has never managed here. Man Utd through their classic period of winning a title every year had wingers. Bayern Munich (the best team in the world) may play with inverted wingers but Robery & Robben cause mayhem with their direct running. For us to play this slow build up, we have the wrong personal, as we can keep the ball, play simple passers, dominate possession but the key to scoring is releasing the ball. Spain can play this way as they have their pick of world class midfielders who can pass the ball, or spot a run. Arsenal even with their narrow line up, play a quick passing game, they attack in numbers and with speed. Its only us who are playing at a slow speed with the wrong type of player and it shows in our lack of goal scoring.
Where does this losing the ball more often phrase come from? We've lost the ball more under AVB in this system than we have in previous seasons. It's only because the defence has been sturdier that we've conceded less goals (City aside). An "all guns blazing" so to speak formation suits the current batch of players more than a "be safe, keep possession, don't concede" set up. I'd much rather win 3-1 than 1-0. 14 games gone should be a fairly sufficient amount of time for players to get to know each other, the fact we've looked steadily worse than how we started out is a concern. With Chiriches aside, no new signing has looked any better than their first few games with us.
Our possession statistics are much better under AVB. Having the ball makes it more likely for you to score and less likely to concede. The tactics you play when you've got the ball are less important. This is why Spain and Barcelona play as they do. It works even better if you have better players but as we have worse players than them (and City, Utd and Chelsea) its even more important that we don't lose the ball
Just to clarify - I think there are three squads in the PL that are definitely better than ours and two that are about the same (based on how much money has been spent/current valuation). So if everyone just sends the players out to play our likely position is fifth. Since we want to come fourth or better we need to rely on AVB getting something more out of our players than the other managers get out of their's. This is a tall order when one of them is Wenger, but if AVB kept doing the 'obvious' things that we can all see I think there is no hope.
You can't compare a successful Tiki-Taka possession game to what we're trying to do. It's completely different. Spain and Barca players have a hell of a lot more freedom. The full backs play as second wingers and the attacking midfielders often roam about in numerous positions throughout a match to find success. Their style of possession is based on attacking in numbers with short passes in a forward motion to then play through balls to the strikers/ wide players. Our style is more concerned with just keeping the ball and not conceding. We rarely attack in numbers (more often than not it's only the wingers and striker in the opponents half) and chances created are generally half chances, we're rigid and cautious. How often will Townsend/ Lamela/ Lennon/ Chadli/ Eriksen etc switch from right to left, then left to centre, centre to right and so on? They don't. You might get the odd winger switch at different times of a match but that's it, we're too predictable and that's why opposition's defences are keeping us at bay easily.
"You can't compare a successful Tiki-Taka possession game to what we're trying to do. It's completely different." Why not ?? Possession, and how you use/retain it are quite basic concepts. A Barca team that played at the pace that the Spurs back four / CM does, would be quite meh. A Barca team that passed as sloppy as Spurs do, no matter the level of opponent pressing, would be quite meh. You have to stop the Messi nonsense and realise that Barca is a team of outfield players that do what on paper should be considered VERY BASIC football skills, both very well and for an entire 90 mins.
I've already explained it in the same post. Possession football can be played at different tempos with different mind sets, Barca's is about attacking in numbers, ours is playing it for more cautious reasons. Huge difference and incomparable in my opinion. And I'm not sure what Messi nonsense you're on about, I never mentioned him.
"I've already explained it in the same post. Possession football can be played at different tempos with different mind sets, Barca's is about attacking in numbers, ours is playing it for more cautious reasons. Huge difference and incomparable in my opinion." Barca are quite capable of beating teams without their usual overwhelming swarm of bees approach. Because they pass FORWARD fast and accurately. A cautious team that passes fast/accurately/forward will still get plenty of chances. A throw caution to the wind team that passes like AVBs' current teams will probably have the Citeh 6-0 results every week. "And I'm not sure what Messi nonsense you're on about, I never mentioned him." A proverbial you (should have been a "we" at that) . Messi is too often used as the reason why other teams cannot possibly play remotely like Barca.
The part about Barca passing forward is exactly my point. That's why I was saying to Power that comparing us and them isn't right as we rarely pass forward in the waves that Barca does, we're more reserved where as they're more expressive. Our cautious approach isn't creating many chances. We tend to get to the edge of the box, dilly and dally about a bit and then either pass back wards or try and find Soldado who has now got 2 defenders marking him. As for the Messi bit thought you meant that I'd mentioned him. I'm more of a Iniesta fan anyway
It's definitely the glass half full or half empty problem. I see a team playing a good system poorly but with lots of signs that it will come good and want to persevere with it. Others think it will never work and want to stop it now.
Yeah can't argue with that mate. I personally see it as a poor system for good players, therefore want it changed.
I see it as a system with players and a manager. I have no idea what to think, good or bad, about any of it any more. I really can't work out what the problem is
"I see a team playing a good system poorly but with lots of signs that it will come good and want to persevere with it. Others think it will never work and want to stop it now." I have seen glimpses of good in what I believe the on-paper benefits of this "system" are. But you cannot deny that are systemic failings for any teams who decide to play Spurs in one particular way. That the corrections are so obvious, but are still not happening, is the biggest concern to me (regardless of what the reasons etc) .
