You think (and I hope you’re right) that results will improve if he’s given time. When do you think we will start to see the improvement?
I think this is where the difference in fan’s perceptions and opinions are at present. It seems split in the sense that some feel we’ll improve, others are currently struggling. I definitely hope we can. One for obvious reasons in that I want us to always do well and secondly because I do genuinely like Ange as a bloke and want someone like him to succeed here but I’m not going to allow my like for a person cloud whether or not I think they’re doing a good enough job, which at this moment, I don’t think he is. I truly believe this squad is better than what results over the past 12 months have dictated so that then unfortunately falls on the manager for failing to get the best out of them. Our personnel are nowhere near as bad as the team’s we’ve fielded post-Pochettino yet our results are becoming too similar to them. We’ve upgraded on an ageing Lloris, Aurier/ Doherty/ Emerson, Dier, Sanchez, Davies/ Sessegnon, Winks/ Sissoko/ Hojbjerg/ Ndombele/ Lo Celso, the only areas we’ve not improved are ST which was always going to be the case and arguably RW as Lamela/ Lucas despite their inconsistencies are yet to be significantly improved on by Johnson.
I think it’s harsh including stats from last season as we’re going through a rebuild, we had a good first eleven last year but no squad whereas we’ve improved the squad over the summer so should only really be tested on this season. After 3 or 4 years you can begin to use it as an indicator a bit more as by then the squad should be where a manager wants it to be (like poch’s terrible record across 2019). If we take the away record under Ange as an example, palace and half of Brighton aside our performances have been pretty good this season whereas last season you could say the palace performance was to often the norm. We should have beaten both Newcastle and Leicester so I think it’s getting there. Were still in contention for the European places and in 3 cup competitions. Beat city, villa and Ipswich (our good start in Europa means we can continue to rotate in turkey so dropped points won’t be the end of the world) and the narrative changes again. With ten hag now gone, Ange seems next in line for the media barrage so patience needs to be at its highest now.
I think what has happened here is Levy knows the fans are happy so long as we knock the ball about a bit I think that is what he has been hearing so he has given us this for some strange reason the fans back Ange in a manner no other manager was when their results were not great to this extent…don’t think sacking him is the answer because I see no point in it anymore since the dynamics from the very top remain the same…but I dont see any progress I just see a different brand of football…one a tad more pleasing to the eye of the typical ‘I just want to see good football’ Spurs fan. We are never winning the league anyway…I just hope we take the Europa seriously…that over top 4 any day and twice on Sundays.
I think comparing on recent history is the only way to determine progression or regression, as well as getting an idea of how the future may pan out. In terms of performances, I just think we've been fresher thanks to the summer break more so than seen any improvements. The second half of last season we were tiring far too early for a side that didn't even have European fixtures as well as crashing out of both domestic cups early. Our actual play is still largely reliant on a lot of passes in the middle of the park and then playing one out wide for a cross/ cut back, it's very, very predictable. In terms of potential media barrage for Ange, the club - as in Levy - never makes decisions on that or fan pressure, he will only make them if he feels there's serious danger of missing out on European qualification, regardless of whether the fans wants something done or not. The majority of the fanbase never wanted Poch sacked for instance (I was on board with it more for Poch's sake than anything, he looked a broken man), when Jol was sacked midway through the Getafe game too you can tell the fans inside the stadium were disgusted by it. He seemingly sacked Redknapp against every single fan's wishes too and that wasn't even based on poor league performance either. Ultimately Ange needs to get results and if he gets them he's safe, regardless of what any fan thinks or wants or what any media outlet put out.
Conte's previous 18 Won 12 Drew 4 Lost 2... 40 points F39 A13 Conte's last 18 games Won 8 Drew 2 Lost 8 ... 26 points F32 A28 Contes best run of games crossed these two periods. Ange's last 18 games Won 9 Drew 2 Lost 7 ... 29 points F29 A30 Ange's previous 18 games Won 9 Drew 4 Lost 5 ... 31 points F39 A26 Total records Conte league P76 W41 D12 L23 F136 A88 pts 135 Per Game pts 1.77 Cup Games CL P8 W3 D3 L2 F9 A7 ECL P2 W1 L1 F4 A4 FA Cup P6 W4 L2 F10 A4 (Only 1 win v a PL team both loses to Championship Teams) League cup P4 W1 L3 F2 A6 (All PL Teams) All games P96 W50 D15 L31 F161 A109 win % = 52% Goals per game 1.67 Ange league P47 W24 D7 L16 F92 A71 pts 79 Per game pts 1.68 Cup Fa Cup P2 W1 L1 F1 A1 (both prem teams) League Cup P2 W1 L1 F 3 A2 (lost to prem team on pens) EL P3 W3 D0 L0 F5 A0 Total cup 7 W5 L2 All games P54 W29 D7 L18 F101 A74 Win% = 53.7% Goals per game 1.87 The over all figures show progress
Actually I don’t think it does. If Conte had a win percentage of 52% after 96 games and Ange has a 53.7% after 54 then current trajectory would show that if Ange reaches 96 games his win percentage will almost certainly decrease past Conte’s.
I should’ve add above too, there are other factors to add in: Quality of squad: Many would agree that Ange has a better squad than Conte, despite the loss of Kane. Then money spent: Conte oversaw a circa £180m spend, Ange has overseen a £320m spend.
Goal difference is a much better measure of actual performance than points or wins. We are doing massively better on that measure than we were at the end of last season.
I didn't say it was more important I said it was a better measure of performance. It's obvious why...try to work it out instead of posting insulting emojis
So win a game 7-0 but lose the next 3 1-0. It’s better than winning 3 games 1-0 and losing 6-0 in the 4th because you’d have a better goal difference after the 4 games even though you lost 3 out of 4. Crazy logic
Spurs are outperforming Arsenal and Villa apparently. Being 5 Points behind, having 4 losses compared to 1 and league position don’t count.
In theory a higher goal difference would equate to a stronger league position but it’s also not a guarantee. If over a 10 game spell you won 3 games by 4 goals but then lost 7 games by 1, you’d have a +GD but only 9 points. A team that may have won 4 games by 1 goal and lost 6 by 3+ would be 3 points above you even with a significantly poorer GD. We actually had the best GD in the league in 15/16 but finished third behind Leicester and Arsenal. Same for the following season but still finished 2nd behind Chelsea.
Both Porro and Kuluchevski are down as being signed in Summer of 2023 when Ange joined but they were both bought in by Conte as loans with an obligation to by. So that removes £50m from Ange's spending and adds £50m to Conte's So by your figures it becomes £230m under Conte and £270m under Ange. Ange had to replace our best keeper since Clemence and our only World class player. So the spending difference is no where near as wide as you suggest tbf
I never factored their fees under Ange, same for Udogie, it’d be unfair and harsh to do that. Solanke: £65m Johnson: £50m Maddison, van de Ven, Gray: circa £40m each Odobert: £25m Dragusin: £20m Vicario: £17m Veliz: £13m Bergvall: £8m Phillips: £2m Circa £320m spent. Yang too who arrives in January but there’s been conflicting reports of the fee, ranging from £2m-£8m depending on where you read. By the time Lloris was replaced he was no longer the same level of keeper either.
That's your logic, not mine and I agree it is crazy. When designing performance measures it is always better to dig deeper than just measuring the outcome because it gives you more information. The outcome we want is the highest league position possible but, unfortunately that is affected by things outside our control such as how many points other teams get and while it is indeed the only thing that matters at the end of the season, league position after 9 matches is a very blunt measure. Points after 9 matches is a better measure but is still affected by random events outside our control. A team who gets awarded an unjustified goal will sometimes get two extra points and sometimes none, depending on what else happens in the game. The things that the players should be being coached to do are to score more goals and concede fewer. So it is entirely logical to measure their success by goal difference as that is less affected by random events than any other measure. If we continue to score nearly two goals a game and concede only one then it is almost certain that we will pick up about 2 points a game because there is no systematic effect that will cause us to have equal numbers of big wins and narrow losses which has been our fate so far. Winning 7-0 followed by three 1-0 losses is indeed poor but also a very unlikely outcome.
