Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Arsenal

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by PleaseNotPoll, Sep 24, 2021.

  1. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    The Spurs Official Twitter account didn't post anything at all about the fight.
    You can check: https://twitter.com/SpursOfficial

    One retweet from the new stadium account, which I assume someone has mistaken for it.
    It appears to have been started specifically for that kind of thing and created for the fight.
    https://twitter.com/SpursStadium
     
    #241
  2. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    Tuchel the champions league winning coach compared to Nuno who finished 13th last season <laugh>
     
    #242
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  3. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    Did he, though?

    While he got a clutch of points on the board, here's our league results from the start of December to the end of January
    West Ham 2-0
    Man Utd 0-0
    Newcastle 1-2
    Fulham 0-0
    West Brom 0-2
    Wigan 0-1
    Portsmouth 1-1
    Stoke 3-1
    Bolton 2-3

    While obviously an upgrade on results from Ramos (because **** me it is practically impossible to match those, let alone get worse ones...) realistically our form only ticked upwards from the end of February onwards, which is not only after bringing in Palacios and Defoe in January so we had steel in midfield and an actual striker, but we'd also sacked off the UEFA Cup to focus on the league - and that's no exaggeration, either, as this is the lineup we played for both legs against Shakhtar
    Robinson; Gunter, Huddlestone, Dawson, Chimbonda; Jenas, Zokora, Parrett; Bentley, Dos Santos; Campbell
    Gomes; Gunter, Chimbonda, Huddlestone, Gilberto; Dos Santos, Palacios, O'Hara, Bale; Campbell, Obika

    Anyway, back to the present...

    The issue right now is Nuno's system is modelled on Klopp's at Liverpool, where wide players are the main attacking force while the midfield funnels the ball out wide so the wingers and fullbacks can carve up the flanks. And this is where the downturn in results began, because we came out of the international break with Son and Bergwijn injured so the system itself was missing two components, and then against Rennes Lucas and Bergwijn were both crocked so we effectively didn't have a right wing and attempted to compensate by sticking Lo Celso out there even though that's not his position (which was a dumb call, but we had to stick somebody out there even though I semi-unironically think Doherty would've been a better call for that), meaning our midfield was funneling the ball out to...well, nobody, so of course the system failed

    Yet there's a second issue: prior to this a Narrative was getting going of "Our midfield is only there to defend" which I saw pop up a few times on Twitter and Reddit, which apart from being bollocks as our midfield was there to bring wide players into the game - which can be argued as being predictable, as there weren't many direct balls through the middle to Harry Kane, but did mean we actually held onto the ball - and this is also where the Third Annual lionising of Ndombele kicked into gear with the belief that as he'd play direct balls through the middle that would add a dimension to our play, when in reality what it's done is add somebody just as likely to lose possession as thread the ball through the middle into the mix, which would be forgivable if he was all-action and pressed hard to rectify his mistake but isn't when his usual response is to assume Hojbjerg or Skipp will sort it out, which so far has only happened in the buildup to our second goal against Wolves

    And this is the issue: Nuno's tactics have been outdone by both the international break utterly ****ing us up for a few weeks, and rejigging his tactics to try and compensate which have only messed up our shape and made us far less solid - and yet this is exactly what the moaner brigade have been demanding we do in spite there being a very obvious cause and effect to having a midfield which is less solid starting and our goal difference plummeting, and it all stems from taking the Mark Hughes approach to expansive football without considering if the personnel or the system actually allow it to work in the first place
     
    #243
  4. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    No, Tuchel the guy who handily dismantled your own argument by talking up the team who finished 11th next season ahead of a dead rubber fixture

    But keep moving those goalposts
     
    #244
  5. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    I never said Nuno was the first to talk up opponents. But the fact he does it every game is tiresome and wears thin.

    As usual, you will go off on another tangent and talk in your weird little riddles rather than just say it how it is.
     
    #245
  6. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough my mistake.

    Still think they should have wished Terry Medwin a happy birthday though.
     
    #246
  7. Diego

    Diego Lone Ranger

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    Were they all away games or home games?
    It does make a difference and is hard to tell from that because you don't know if the home team or away team won.
     
    #247
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  8. District Line

    District Line Well-Known Member
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    The “Big 6” are all awfully managed up top but the main difference is City, Liverpool and Chelsea have World Class managers to hide the incompetence of their board and Tottenham/Arsenal/Man Utd don’t.

    Poch was a once in a lifetime miracle, I don’t think any manager bar Klopp could achieve what he did on such limited resources.

    In my opinion Tottenham have to do what Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham all did and rebuild the squad. Villa and Leicester have also rebuilt and look far better off for it. If Levy doesn’t start a rebuild this summer then THFC will be left behind - it’s not like CFC/MCFC/MUFC who can willingly spend £250m in one window to overhaul. Levy will need to do this over 2/3 windows.
     
    #248
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  9. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    I think Spurs have tried to rebuild the squad,
    The number of players in has been substantial the last few years, unfortunately most of them have turned out to be utter dross. It’s not about spending more or signing more, it’s about being smarter with who they sign and also getting managerial appointments correct. Enic’s record of managerial appointments is woeful.
     
    #249
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  10. District Line

    District Line Well-Known Member
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    You obviously know your club far better than I do but from the outside looking in it seems to me signings are made without any afterthought as to how the team will play.

    Son, Kane, Alli and Moura are suited to counter-attacking football - they work far better in space and providing the finishing touches. On the other hand you have Ndombele, Lo Celso and Hojberg who can’t play that way. They can’t absorb pressure without the ball in a way Chelsea, City or Liverpool’s midfields can.

    Nuno won’t work and in my view THFC should replace him after the next international break but no manager is going to succeed with the current squad. There are too many battle scars and it’s at the end of its cycle as a team.
     
    #250

  11. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    1. You have confused results with effort and style of football in the results you have chosen.
    You said that a manager can not change the style of football straight away yet redknapp did exactly that.
    You cherry picked a random set of results to to suggest otherwise.

    2. Our results from when he walked through the door up to where you used them were...
    Bolton (h) 2-0
    Arsenal (a) 4-4 (came back from 4-2 down)
    Liverpool (h) 2-1 (came from behind)
    D Zagreb (h) 4-0
    Man City (a) 2-1
    Liverpool (h) 4-2 Cup
    Fulham (a) 1-2
    Blackburn (h) 1-0
    NEC (uefa cup) (a) 1-0
    Everton (h) 0-1
    Watford (a) 1-2 (cup)

    In his first 11 games
    W8 D1 L2 F22 A 12

    In our previous 11 games under Ramos (in all competitions...

    P11 W2 D3 L7 F10 A17

    In the period 9 games you chose (after ignoring his first 12 in charge) you have also ignored 5 cup games... the total record for the beginning of December to the end of January was...

    P14 W4 D4 L6 F21 A19

    Like I said Redknapp DID walk in and make us more entertaining from day one.

    He did not turn us into a top 4 team over night with the same set of players but he absolutely made us more entertaining and imo a better team as a result.

    I ain't screaming for Nuno to be sacked...but I am absolutely sick of the dross we are playing and have been playing for almost 2 years.
     
    #251
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  12. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Or it could be that both Solskjaer and Nuno are simply not good enough tactically.

    Btw there aren't any United fan saying what you've posted. Nobody's asking for all attacking players on the pitch. The three things mainly being questioned are the ones he's selecting over others and then the positions he's playing them in, his choice of holding midfielders, and the tactics he's deploying where we're playing unimaginative one dimensional football. Ironically it seems, not too dissimilar to what's being said about Nuno on here.
     
    #252
  13. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    So, that's 5 PL games on the trot where we've looked pretty ****ing terrible. We got away with Wolves and Watford and have now been handed our arses on 3 consecutive occasions.

    There's no sign of any structure to anything that we're doing...and that's not just on the pitch, although that's certainly true. The results of the Transfer Window and the managerial search were monumental **** ups. Some are trying to lay Nuno at Paratici's door...but that's ridiculous. Paratici's pick was Conte...and then Gattuso. Nuno was all that was left after we'd gone through every unemployed coach in Europe. By the time Nuno's name came up, we'd wasted 9 weeks and gone through a similar number of possible coaches. Everyone was desperate for someone. He didn't turn us down. End of.

    The problems aren't of their making and they aren't as a result of a short term '"taking the eye off the ball". This is the pigeons coming home to roost after 6 or more years of poor leadership and decision making. Whilst clearly Nuno's struggling to put out an effective line up, the lack of realistic central midfielder options and anything to pick in place of the currently woeful Kane, are not his fault and given our traditional paltry spend and lack of time, I'm not solely blaming Paratici either.

    Villa is a crunch game if we lose and play as we have been doing, there is going to be unrest amongst fans. My hope is that it's directed where it might do some good...and it's properly deserved. Getting after Nuno is as pointless as his appointment.
     
    #253
  14. District Line

    District Line Well-Known Member
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    Villa were outstanding away at Chelsea and United, even for a team bang in form that would be a tough game. Your fixtures even after the International Break look horrendous.

    There is still plenty to play for and THFC are still involved in every competition, ENIC/Levy need to act soon (whatever it is they do).
     
    #254
  15. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    You know what I've said sixteen or seventeen times about our tactical switch ****ing up our shape?

    please log in to view this image


    Now I'll be honest and say I was ready to lay into Dele more than anyone else because he seemed to be playing as a striker for the entire first half prior to his getting hooked, but either he trudged back to pick the ball out of the net three times in the first half to balance out his dot or, just as likely, half of that dot is actually Skipp playing in the second half - which is a feasible suggestion since it appears that passes are reaching teammates, something I don't recall Dele doing in his 45 minutes

    But let's talk about that midfield for just a second, mainly because what that map is showing us is...well, this

    please log in to view this image


    Where in the name of **** is our midfield in that screengrab? No wonder Sanchez was having to resort to sending it long far too often in the match when, if Hojbjerg wasn't in a position to receive the ball, sending it long was the only option available to him

    In comparison, here's the passmaps from the Wolves and Watford games. You know, the ones that the Lunatic Fringe moaned about because we played three DMs, which was at least a short break from their six months of whining about Ndombele being dropped for the SKC final?

    please log in to view this image

    please log in to view this image


    Night and day, isn't it? Our midfield has a clearly-defined shape, there is always an option for the CBs to play it out from the back as both Skipp and Hojbjerg are available, and there aren't any isolated islands wandering around the pitch watching the ball ping around them yet not actually reach them

    And then we had to be "more creative", and what happens? Players tripping over each other running into the same pockets of space, Hojbjerg having to knit the entire midfield together because Dele and Ndombele have ****ed off halfway up the pitch, and an isolated island named Harry Kane who isn't getting the ball from the "creative" players not least because the "creative" Ndombele is playing further up the pitch than he is yet he's passing backwards to Hojbjerg, Reguilon or Lucas once he's up there

    I said it after the Wolves game that we shouldn't play Ndombele and Dele in the same team because...well, look at the Wolves or Arsenal games, but I'm going to go one step further: if we're going to play Ndombele, we need to start both Skipp and Hojbjerg because he needs two players to balance out his ****ups - or we simply decide, **** it, Lo Celso's our creative fulcrum now, sod what people on Twitter think
     
    #255
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  16. The Huddlefro

    The Huddlefro Well-Known Member

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    I was saying this yesterday but IMO Skipp and Højbjerg have to start together, whether it’s in a pivot or as part of a 3-man midfield. Skipp sits very centrally and is good at defending that space as well as providing an out ball for the defence.
     
    #256
  17. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    The fact is that our football didn't improve overnight when Redknapp took over, our results did - the football didn't improve until after Palacios was signed and Modric moved into the centre of midfield in January, because prior to that we were playing lineups which were attempting to negate how our midfield couldn't control a drugged woodlouse let alone a game of football, for example in the Bolton game we lined up with a 451 formation. At home. Against Bolton

    This is exactly why our form plummeted in December-January, because once we'd got past the new manager bounce the fact our team couldn't control a midfield to save their lives came right back to haunt us, which is why we signed Palacios and also why it was fortunate that we didn't offload Bale to Birmingham that month either, because once Bale started to get established that meant Modric moved into the centre, and that's when our style of play actually improved because that's also when Jamie O'Hara and Didier Zokora started to get further and further away from the starting lineup and the Modric/Palacios pairing gave us the ability to control games from midfield that we'd lacked up to that point

    Why do I keep using the words "control" and "midfield"? Because that is our issue at the moment, and has been since the 2018-19 season, and it keeps on haunting us in different ways. Yesterday it haunted us because 2/3 of our midfield ****ed off up the pitch to play a game of football they'd clearly made up and left us wide open in the middle. Against Wolves it haunted us because as soon as Wolves got a sniff in the game we didn't have anyone to put their foot on the game and stop it. Against Chelsea as soon as they changed their shape and brought on Kante to counter how we were making inroads in the first half we were screwed - and playing attacking football, attractive football, or any other aesthetically pleasing words beginning with an a doesn't magically make you control midfield, it makes you Ossie Ardiles

    The issue, ultimately, comes down to our midfield deteriorating physically in the latter stages of 2017-18 and this not being addressed in any adequate way, as Poch's attitude of Ndombele or nobody (even when offered Tielemans by Hitchen) is a catalyst for so much that's gone wrong since, from the obvious decline in quality of our football during the 2018-19 season, to paying way over the odds for Ndombele and not getting anything like what we needed, the various tactical switches Poch implemented in that time period, eighteen months of tactical ineptitude from somebody who we were led to believe was good for anything other than clips in an Amazon doc, and failure to bring in a first team-ready CM in the summer to balance out our midfield or at the very least not make us worried at the thought of seeing Ndombele and Dele in the same starting xi

    And this is also why the football has declined, because if we can't control a game in midfield something has to go to compensate for it. The issue is that when we do this we have either a manager suddenly decide to play open football in spite of this issue existing which is what Villas-Boas did and Nuno is doing, or to drastically overcompensate with a systemic change and actively make it worse like Poch did, or decide there's no point and just let the buggers get overrun and hope the defence gut it out like the ubermensch did - and in Nuno's case, what he's doing wrong is not sticking to his guns, because sticking to his guns gave us shape and structure, but the second he decides (or is told to?) play more open football way ahead of schedule the shape and structure disappear, and we're not playing dross - we're playing ****, with results to match
     
    #257
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  18. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    I can't remember who said it yesterday, but Dele's role change is also baffling

    In the first few games he was a LCM whose role was similar to someone like Jamie O'Hara or Michael Brown, whose role was to be a bloody nuisance
    Since the Palace game he's switched to a RCM with a more advanced role, so rather than hassling opponents he's leaving gaps in midfield which is a bloody nuisance for us instead
     
    #258
  19. Billy The Yid

    Billy The Yid Well-Known Member

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    Dele needs to be playing at #10 just behind Kane, as he did under Poch where he played well and racked up some impressive stats. If he is going to be played at right or left centre midfield where he is mostly ineffective, then he may as well be sold.
     
    #259
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  20. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    He’s not good enough (hasn’t been for a while) to be a number 10 for Spurs.

    For his sake and the clubs sake, he needs to be moved on. The club can’t keep persisting with things that don’t work.
     
    #260

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