I've always thought it more advantageous to sub early in the match and not in the last 2 minutes, stupid beyond explanation.
I don’t agree. He changed the formation and we didn’t cope with it.*. Completely different. And you’ve just made exactly the mistake I object to. Seeing patterns that are not there. It is a very common human failing. Some people even choose lottery numbers on the basis of previous results. I agree that on the basis of what we know, Foyth and Vertonghen were not the ideal partnership for that game. But it doesn’t make sense to change AFTER they have made mistakes unless you can see a separate reason why the original decision to play them was wrong. There are loads of occasions when a player is rubbish for half the match and then brilliant in the:second half. *Actually what happened was that they scored a worldy from a player who was already on the pitch, a goal from a lucky deflection and one down to Dier getting wrong side. All down to substitutions?
Assuming that the initial selection is sensible, there is no reason to change it in most matches until players tire. Pochettino will have access to statistics on this, ie real data, not opinion.
Yep.I remember Chelsea, I also remember Juve last season, we were 1-0 up at Wembley, on 60 minutes Allegri made two changes, at 67 minutes Juve were 2-1 up. Poch didn't make a change until about 10 minutes after that second goal. Poch has utilised good subs in the past (Fulham and then Inter the other day), why doesn't he do it more often? It's a really frustrating part of an otherwise very good manager.
Yeah I'm of the opinion there is no real set time for subs but that a manager should understand when a change is required. It could be after 30/45/60/70/80 minutes but changes should be made when it's apparent things aren't working OR if things need to be preserved (IE a 1-0 lead in dying minutes etc). Poch very rarely tends to make subs before a certain time, as if it's a somewhat robotic schedule that a sub can't be made until after 75 or so minutes. By then the game could already be dead and buried, which it pretty much was when he made his first two subs yesterday.
This isn't the lottery, Power, this is football, that comparison makes no sense to me as you can't control the outcome of the lottery but you can certainly make a strong case to change the outcome of a football match with well timed substitutions. If a player is making mistakes and playing poorly, why run the risk of further mistakes by keeping them on? That is exactly what happened in the second half - Foyth lost possession for one of their goals, Vertonghen got sent off. At least one of those could have been avoided had he brought Toby on, though we'll never know but what we do know is that keeping both Foyth and Vertonghen on was a disastrous piece of management. And yes, it was down to substitutions because one scored and the other got two assists, how are you seemingly ignoring this? The proof is right in front of you, Power, you're just refusing to accept it. The subs at HT contributed to all three Arsenal goals in the second half. Emery and his subs changed the game.
The point I am trying to make is that the risk of further mistakes DOES NOT depend on whether mistakes have already been made. Each few seconds of a match is almost entirely independent of what happened previously. Arsenal have never led at half time this season. Am I supposed to believe that Emery selects stupid starting elevens and then has brilliant tactical insights during the match? That makes no sense. In any case the best period for Arsenal was the first 20 mins. It would have been a much better reflection of the match if they had led 3-2 at half time. Would Emery have made the same changes?
Of course it does. Poor form in a game leads to mistakes, if a player is playing poorly you take them off, it's a simple concept. Iwobi and Mkhi were ineffective against a Spurs defence that was all over the place in the first half. The two subs however were very effective. Arsenal weren't 3-2 up though were they? They were 2-1 down and his subs resulted in the game finishing 4-2 to them. We were extremely fortunate to have been 2-1 up at HT, Arsenal battered us for a solid 25 minutes. Vertonghen and Foyth were being bailed out by Hugo plus an important block from Dier at one point. They couldn't handle Arsenal yet we chose to keep both on while leaving Toby - who is either our best or second best CB - on the bench... A dumb decision. The result finished 4-2, Emery's subs and Poch's lack of were greatly down to how that game finished.
Mistakes...perhaps not but if there's a weakness in the team, be it due to injury to a player, tiredness, form, tactical set up, etc. that weakness can be exploited until it's changed. The Aurier/Foyth partnership on the right is fine when we're on top and is having the odd break to address. However, against a team that's on top of us, it just isn't good enough. Neither player's positioning is great and both panic. In that second half, after their goal, Arsenal were tearing into that side. Either swap Toby for Foyth or go 3 at the back and get Toby between Foyth and Aurier to bolster the defence and organise them more. Personally, I'd have brought Winksy on as well, to try and keep possession better. We needed to change as we were under the cosh and needed to give them more problems to solve. We just let them come.
Of course Emery would not feel the need to make them subs if his team were winning. The fact is they were losing and he did something about it pronto...Poch needed 100% proof that were getting hammered before he decided to do that but by then we were done. Its a 90 minute game...further mistakes don't depend on wether mistakes have been made as you said however it's quite likely the player having the mare will continue to do so...why risk that when you have options on the bench? I'm sure you have watched enough football to know that when a player is a liability on the pitch then he's best removed...especially a defender. It's Poch's job to manage the situation to give ourselves the best chance to get something out of a football match...he doesn't have too many tools once the game has kicked off but subs are definitely a useful set of tools...so Poch really needs to make the most of them. Plus I think it's unfair throwing players on when we have a mountain to climb...that's bad management and no doubt deflates those coming off the bench... "Gaffer doesn't even have faith in us...ohh he needs us now because we are in a massive hole...well don't expect me to perform miracles with 10 minutes to go"
I don't object to most of that at all. It wasn't a good choice to pick Foyth if Alderweireld was fit and it would have been a good tactical change to bring him on. However most of Foyth's mistakes were trying to do too much with the ball and he is usually rather good at that. I wouldn't have taken either him or Vertonghen off but would have bolstered them as you suggested. We were actually on top for the middle half hour of the match and if Arsenal hadn't scored that brilliant goal I think we would have held on.
This is still bugging the **** out of me. Aubameyang goes to the only corner of the ground that has our fans in it, does a somersault and pisses about for a minute and that's fine. Dier does something that Henry used to do every week, their players try to start a brawl and he gets booked. How the **** does that work? Something similar happened with Chadli when he scored there in 2014: No shushing at the Library, apparently. Rather ironic.
Yeah, got to agree with you. I don't think shushing the crowd is a yellow card offence. It's apparently deemed as 'inciting' the crowd, which I think is a joke. A) these are fully grown adults. If an opposition player taunting you causes you to get violent or overtly aggressive, methinks there's some deep rooted personal issues that need to be resolved. See a counsellor or something. And B) fans need to accept that if they're dishing it out, they have to take it back as well. Aubameyang did a similar Henry style celebration and nothing happened. Although the banana skin being thrown at Aubameyang left a really sour taste in my mouth. Really not on at all. Again, ostensibly provocative football celebrations shouldn't be an excuse for fans to act like ****s.
I condemned it when Arsenal did it to Adebayor and I'm condemning it now. Totally unacceptable behaviour.
Respectfully, I don't understand the point you're making. If a player is underperforming, making mistakes or not contributing to a game in the opening 45 minutes, the manager shouldn't be expected to keep a player on the pitch in the hope he may perform better in the second half. A manager can only base the next decision he makes on what has happened previously. Further mistakes might not happen, but if a player has spent an entire first half faffing around, why should the manager trust him to turn it around in the second half if all the evidence points to them being a liability? You're right that sometimes a player can perform terribly in one half and superbly in the second half, but you have to ask yourself whether that is a risk worth taking or not. Personally, I don't think it is. Emery picks a starting 11 he thinks will win the game. If it isn't working out, he will make changes by either tweaking the formation to accommodate certain players or he will bring players on that will carry out his instructions if the player that started hasn't been doing so. You're asking if Emery has brilliant tactical insights during the match...errr, yeah? Isn't that kind of the point of being a proactive manager? If you see the team/strategy/formation isn't working during the first half, you change things to increase your chances of winning. Erm...probably not because we would have been winning? But we weren't winning, we were losing. Hence why he made the changes. Again, I don't really see the point you're trying to make here...
It's behaviour that's very badly out of place in the NLD's of my experience. Lots of hatred, although for us, Chelsea is worse to my mind, but racism? It's really shocking to me. I thought that we'd left this stupid **** behind us. I hope for everyone's sake that it wasn't intended in that way and if it was, the perpetrator is banned for life and we see no more of this. Just as we're so close to getting safe standing and incredible stadia, we get managers running on the pitch and homophobia and racism from fans? It isn't good for anyone and people need to raise their behaviour - managers, players and fans alike.
