There will always be an argument to be had when it comes to who is the better player but as you say he was exceptional and that is not a point to argue.
Lampard doesn't stand out, he simply has longevity. Drogba, Robben, Ashley Cole, Makelele, Cech, Essien, Ballack, Terry have all been great players for Chelsea during Lampard's time there. They also all had as much, if not more, influence as Lampard during Chelsea's successful period. The only difference is that Lampard has been there longer. Why? Well as we've established he's very good midfielder but he is a grafter who's honed his craft but has limited technical ability. And even then I'd say his real influence was for a period of around 6 years. And he certainly did not stand out among the chelsea players I've listed above. I believe this is consigning great(er) players to history which is what you're relying on. Drogba for example, at his peak was the best striker in the world and nobody at CFC stood out above him during that period. I find the comment about Hoddle and Gascoigne being "irrelevant" as nothing less than offensive tbh. These were two great players. Put things in perspective, what would Lampard's stats have looked like playing in their teams? I bet if he had been playing during their era (and in the sides they did) he'd be a lot more irrelevant today than them. The fact they weren't fortunate enough to play in a world class team like Lampard is not their fault, they were still top midfielders. The only stat anyone mentions is Lampard's goals. That's really it. And there are other English midfielders who could match or better him on that. And that's without even looking at what they have done for the national football team. If we're talking about records, and Lampard stood out so much, why did he fail to impress for England? And the fact he did must count against him surely? I have always said that I question whether he should be included, and I haven't heard anything that couldn't be applied to other great midfielders, such as say Alan Ball. Why not him? But it seems on this thread Chelsea fans don't like hearing that. If you can make an argument for Lampard, I can pretty much make the same argument for other midfielders. That's pretty much why I do believe he is that tier below, among those "6 of one, half a dozen of the other" types. Midfielders like Charlton, Scholes, Gerrard and I'd argue Gascoigne, Hoddle and even Martin Peters did stand out above that second tier of players.
Tbh I don't knw as I've never seen anything more than the highlights. I think he assisted one of Hurst's goals with a cross so he may have been on the wing. He did play on the right, but I wouldn't be surprised if even as a mid he hadn't been running himself everywhere including out wide in that game.
Having just googled it, Nobby Stiles and Charlton played in the middle, with Peters on the left and Ball was on the right. I don't know wether that was Balls normal position or he was just doing a job for the team out there. I know his best attribute was his pace though, so it would make sense if he was a winger
I honestly don't know enough about the 66 WC to comment. I just looked it up and he was a RW in that tournament. But he played as a midfielder at Everton (and Arsenal iirc) when he was at his best and scored plenty
The 66 WC was famous for Alf's Wingless Wonders. He avoided playing wingers, at a time when most teams relied on them, thus effectively taking the fullbacks out of the game. That's one of the reasons Charlton scored so many England goals - the opposition CMs were busy trying to deal with Ball and Peters, leaving him free to attack and score. Ball played on the right of the three AMs in 66, but definitely wasn't a winger. Bit like Gerrard in 2006, he was shifted out wide to accommodate the more talented Charlton and disciplined Stiles in the centre.
Having trawled through this thread it is good to see some praise for Alan Ball. For me the greatest footballer that ever lived, if not for talent but his attitude. Worked damned hard at Southampton as a player and Portsmouth as a manager - twice!!! Other great midfielders, maybe not as individuals but as a fabulous footballing unit - and as part of Everton's Championship winning teams in 1985 and 1987 Peter Reid, Trevor Steven and Paul Bracewell!!! As I am on the Everton theme there was the fantastic trio of Kendall, Ball and Harvey!!! in 1970!!
For me it is who makes the team better, makes the team more exciting to watch and crucially makes the team more likely to win. On that basis, players like scholes, lampard and even Stevie should be in the mix. Stevie at his peak for me just shades it over lampard but of course all united midfielders are well on top (robson, scholes)
I assure you I've watched more Chelsea games than you over the last 10 years and Lampard was our best player over that time and was our best player in our best era (Jose first time around). So he did stand out. Robben was amazing for about a year and we had some other important players of course but pretty much any Chelsea fan will tell you that Lampard was the most important player. To label him as a grafter is slightly embarrassing really. He really had everything you could want in a central midfielder and could tackle unlike a certain Ginger!! Hoddle and Gasgoigne were great players just not a tier above Lampard and there is nothing to back up the suggestion they are. They didn't play in world class team so we can't judge in that regard but that doesn't stop 90% of United fans dismissing Gerrard for never winning a league title. Lampard was runner up world and European footballer of the year, won league titles, both European trophies, numerous domestic cups, top scoring premier league midfielder. Which other English midfielders have achieved this? Lampard was also voted England's best player twice and has over 100 caps. Something conveniently forgotten now everyone is in the rut of slagging off every England player since 1996. England with Lampard in the engine were a good side and were unlucky not to progress further in tournaments. Not a surprise that England's on pitch fortunes have slid since the golden generation have retired / got old. Charlton's England record stands alone, everyone else is debateable.
