Transfer Rumours To sack or not to sack?

[Citizen Kane.]

Whatever happens, you can be sure Levy will make the wrong decision.

My take is that in the space of 5-6 years, he has backed himself so far into a corner that it is almost impossible barring a miracle for him to make the right decision.

We are simply not an attractive proposal for the best players. Our wage ceiling since Lloris and Kane left is less impressive than it has been in nearly a decade. We don't win trophies and cannot possibly claim to offer regular CL football when we've only qualified for the competition once in six years (yes, I'm counting this season now as top 4 went months ago).

Why would any top player want to join us? Is it any wonder we keep signing massively over-priced duds, teenagers, or players who are at the end of their contracts? No-one else will join!

Why would any top manager want to join us either? Is it any wonder every manager hunt has to get down to the 5th or 6th choice before someone is stupid or amateur enough to say yes? Conte only joined us because his mate Fabio talked him into it. Slot turned us down. Amorim reportedly turned us down. Nagelsmann turned us down. Flick turned us down. Is it any wonder we end up with the likes of Nuno and Ange? No one else will join!

I and a number of other posters were warning about this literally five years ago. We could see how every decision Levy was making was simply moving the cue ball inch by inch closer to being completely snookered.

Our hopes now rest entirely on the cup competitions. That's how thin the ice is between salvaging the situation and reverting permanently to the mediocre nobodies we were in the 90s.

 

[PowerSpurs]

My take is that in the space of 5-6 years, he has backed himself so far into a corner that it is almost impossible barring a miracle for him to make the right decision.

We are simply not an attractive proposal for the best players. Our wage ceiling since Lloris and Kane left is less impressive than it has been in nearly a decade. We don't win trophies and cannot possibly claim to offer regular CL football when we've only qualified for the competition once in six years (yes, I'm counting this season now as top 4 went months ago).

Why would any top player want to join us? Is it any wonder we keep signing massively over-priced duds, teenagers, or players who are at the end of their contracts? No-one else will join!

Why would any top manager want to join us either? Is it any wonder every manager hunt has to get down to the 5th or 6th choice before someone is stupid or amateur enough to say yes? Conte only joined us because his mate Fabio talked him into it. Slot turned us down. Amorim reportedly turned us down. Nagelsmann turned us down. Flick turned us down. Is it any wonder we end up with the likes of Nuno and Ange? No one else will join!

I and a number of other posters were warning about this literally five years ago. We could see how every decision Levy was making was simply moving the cue ball inch by inch closer to being completely snookered.

Our hopes now rest entirely on the cup competitions. That's how thin the ice is between salvaging the situation and reverting permanently to the mediocre nobodies we were in the 90s.

What has any of that got to do with Levy's decision making? He has increased the revenue so that we are now fourth best but Arsenal and Chelsea have still outspent us so we remain with the sixth most expensive squad. And as I posted a few days ago our league position over the whole of Levy's tenure is entirely consistent with our revenue so whatever football decisions have been made they have not been noticeably harmful.
You're just describing the normal outcome for a club trying to improve. It's a massive uphill struggle with frequent setbacks.

 

[The RDBD]

So there’s now rumours that certain players are complaining about Ange’s demands in training, and the schedule. It’s these exact type of media reports that always come out, just before the manager is about to be sacked. Happened with Conte, Mourinho and Nuno IIRC.
Convenient that it’s happening again. It’s almost become routine. It’s like Levy is sowing the seed to make it seem like the players are unhappy, so he’s got no choice but to pull the trigger. Too coincidental for my liking.

Just hack gossip. Don't partake of it.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

What has any of that got to do with Levy's decision making? He has increased the revenue so that we are now fourth best but Arsenal and Chelsea have still outspent us so we remain with the sixth most expensive squad. And as I posted a few days ago our league position over the whole of Levy's tenure is entirely consistent with our revenue so whatever football decisions have been made they have not been noticeably harmful.
You're just describing the normal outcome for a club trying to improve. It's a massive uphill struggle with frequent setbacks.

Normal outcome?

There is nothing 'normal' about going from a team that consistently finished in the top 4 and reached the CL final, to sitting 15th in the league in the space of six years.

You couldn't cite a single comparable example from another team because it doesn't exist. The only one remotely close is Chelsea, but to compare us to them and claim that we're copying their risk-taking approach is perhaps more scary than it is stupid, as their 'risks' are buttressed by half a billion pounds per year.

The conclusion is that us 'trying to improve' looks totally different to any other team (all of whom are trying to improve), which leads me to my original conclusion which is that the person doing the trying probably doesn't know what he is doing.

 

[Tilly'sowner]

So there’s now rumours that certain players are complaining about Ange’s demands in training, and the schedule. It’s these exact type of media reports that always come out, just before the manager is about to be sacked. Happened with Conte, Mourinho and Nuno IIRC.
Convenient that it’s happening again. It’s almost become routine. It’s like Levy is sowing the seed to make it seem like the players are unhappy, so he’s got no choice but to pull the trigger. Too coincidental for my liking.

I mentioned the other day that in my opinion, it looks like the players have given up on Ange. I can see some merit in this report.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

I mentioned the other day that in my opinion, it looks like the players have given up on Ange. I can see some merit in this report.

I don't think that they have given up on him exactly, but they've probably realised that his methods aren't working.
There doesn't appear to be any lack of effort and they still seem to give a ****, but his system's broken.
It doesn't suit the few remaining players that it hasn't injured and we're relying on kids to still function.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Normal outcome?

There is nothing 'normal' about going from a team that consistently finished in the top 4 and reached the CL final, to sitting 15th in the league in the space of six years.

You couldn't cite a single comparable example from another team because it doesn't exist. The only one remotely close is Chelsea, but to compare us to them and claim that we're copying their risk-taking approach is perhaps more scary than it is stupid, as their 'risks' are buttressed by half a billion pounds per year.

The conclusion is that us 'trying to improve' looks totally different to any other team (all of whom are trying to improve), which leads me to my original conclusion which is that the person doing the trying probably doesn't know what he is doing.

We keep making the same mistakes. Hire the wrong coach for the players we do have and then fail to buy the players needed as appropriate replacements.

We've then sacked the coach...and with each coach sacked, our pool of replacements has become less and less capable of improving our worsening position. Ange was a total punt...and given how it's played out, I can't see how it could ever have worked. Strangely, he's the one that Levy's being accredited with 'backing'. In truth, Levy's got nowhere to go. There's nobody left to pick up the poisoned chalice who could possibly improve things right now, so it's down to preying things will improve when a few players return to fitness and we pick up a few wins to keep us up...then rethink in the summer.

It's probably the only option, so let's hope it works. Who the **** is going to come in and rescue us, I cannot imagine, but jumping at another unsuitable mid-season appointment, like Mourinho or Conte ain't moving in the right direction.

PS insists luck determines so much in football...right now, it's all that's left to Levy, because of his reckless stupidity over the last 5 years.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Normal outcome?

There is nothing 'normal' about going from a team that consistently finished in the top 4 and reached the CL final, to sitting 15th in the league in the space of six years.

You couldn't cite a single comparable example from another team because it doesn't exist. The only one remotely close is Chelsea, but to compare us to them and claim that we're copying their risk-taking approach is perhaps more scary than it is stupid, as their 'risks' are buttressed by half a billion pounds per year.

The conclusion is that us 'trying to improve' looks totally different to any other team (all of whom are trying to improve), which leads me to my original conclusion which is that the person doing the trying probably doesn't know what he is doing.

The reason there is no comparable example is because no other normally financed club has gone from midtable to being a regular in the CL in the first place. We overperformed for a few years to get there and have underperformed for a few years since. The average performance is exactly as expected and that won't be changed by one outlier season even if it is still an outlier at season end.

 

[PowerSpurs]

We keep making the same mistakes. Hire the wrong coach for the players we do have and then fail to buy the players needed as appropriate replacements.

We've then sacked the coach...and with each coach sacked, our pool of replacements has become less and less capable of improving our worsening position. Ange was a total punt...and given how it's played out, I can't see how it could ever have worked. Strangely, he's the one that Levy's being accredited with 'backing'. In truth, Levy's got nowhere to go. There's nobody left to pick up the poisoned chalice who could possibly improve things right now, so it's down to preying things will improve when a few players return to fitness and we pick up a few wins to keep us up...then rethink in the summer.

It's probably the only option, so let's hope it works. Who the **** is going to come in and rescue us, I cannot imagine, but jumping at another unsuitable mid-season appointment, like Mourinho or Conte ain't moving in the right direction.

PS insists luck determines so much in football...right now, it's all that's left to Levy, because of his reckless stupidity over the last 5 years.

I've been completely clear that money is by far the biggest factor in football outcomes. Luck is most likely the second biggest with some occasional contributions from coaching skill, recruitment and youth development, with none of the last three being sustainable as an edge.

 

[Roo]

My take is that in the space of 5-6 years, he has backed himself so far into a corner that it is almost impossible barring a miracle for him to make the right decision.

We are simply not an attractive proposal for the best players. Our wage ceiling since Lloris and Kane left is less impressive than it has been in nearly a decade. We don't win trophies and cannot possibly claim to offer regular CL football when we've only qualified for the competition once in six years (yes, I'm counting this season now as top 4 went months ago).

Why would any top player want to join us? Is it any wonder we keep signing massively over-priced duds, teenagers, or players who are at the end of their contracts? No-one else will join!

Why would any top manager want to join us either? Is it any wonder every manager hunt has to get down to the 5th or 6th choice before someone is stupid or amateur enough to say yes? Conte only joined us because his mate Fabio talked him into it. Slot turned us down. Amorim reportedly turned us down. Nagelsmann turned us down. Flick turned us down. Is it any wonder we end up with the likes of Nuno and Ange? No one else will join!

I and a number of other posters were warning about this literally five years ago. We could see how every decision Levy was making was simply moving the cue ball inch by inch closer to being completely snookered.

Our hopes now rest entirely on the cup competitions. That's how thin the ice is between salvaging the situation and reverting permanently to the mediocre nobodies we were in the 90s.

this nails it, for me.
Too many “but we don’t offer this” or “we can’t compete with that” scenarios which is exactly why we end up with what we end up with.

so far, what has the new stadium done to support on the field changes/improvements? Genuine question that I’d like some answers on. I know some of you are far more data driven than I am, so I’d love to know whether there’s been an increase in wages that directly correlates to the stadium (whether it be existing contracts for few players, or new signings). Any info would be much appreciated.
As a fan who isn’t “in the know” with data, it honestly doesn’t seem like the new stadium has made a scrap of difference.

 

[The RDBD]

this nails it, for me.
Too many “but we don’t offer this” or “we can’t compete with that” scenarios which is exactly why we end up with what we end up with.

so far, what has the new stadium done to support on the field changes/improvements? Genuine question that I’d like some answers on. I know some of you are far more data driven than I am, so I’d love to know whether there’s been an increase in wages that directly correlates to the stadium (whether it be existing contracts for few players, or new signings). Any info would be much appreciated.
As a fan who isn’t “in the know” with data, it honestly doesn’t seem like the new stadium has made a scrap of difference.

Swiss Ramble is most likely to have such info in well-presented form.
That aside ...

You could start from the 2019-20 season, to see how
transfer/wage costs are changing wrt to revenue
(where you would expect to see a serious revenue ramp) .

The transfer costs would be the most significant
(after accounting for any league-wide trends each season etc) .

The wage costs : not so much IMHO (Levy is renowned for
keeping a tight rein on that whatever the club revenues are) .

 

[Tilly'sowner]

I don't think that they have given up on him exactly, but they've probably realised that his methods aren't working.
There doesn't appear to be any lack of effort and they still seem to give a ****, but his system's broken.
It doesn't suit the few remaining players that it hasn't injured and we're relying on kids to still function.

Yes, that’s what I said the other day. I think they still like him on a personal level but perhaps questioning his management skills.

All speculations of course!

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Swiss Ramble is most likely to have such info in well-presented form.
That aside ...

You could start from the 2019-20 season, to see how
transfer/wage costs are changing wrt to revenue
(where you would expect to see a serious revenue ramp) .

The transfer costs would be the most significant
(after accounting for any league-wide trends each season etc) .

The wage costs : not so much IMHO (Levy is renowned for
keeping a tight rein on that whatever the club revenues are) .

19/20 probably isn't the best year to use, due to COVID.
Typically Tottenham that we have a long-term project that's ****ed by such a one-off event as soon as it's launched. Spursy.

 

[The RDBD]

19/20 probably isn't the best year to use, due to COVID.
Typically Tottenham that we have a long-term project that's ****ed by such a one-off event as soon as it's launched. Spursy.

You put a note to that effect (it should show on the graph anyway as a serious outlier) .

 

[PowerSpurs]

this nails it, for me.
Too many “but we don’t offer this” or “we can’t compete with that” scenarios which is exactly why we end up with what we end up with.

so far, what has the new stadium done to support on the field changes/improvements? Genuine question that I’d like some answers on. I know some of you are far more data driven than I am, so I’d love to know whether there’s been an increase in wages that directly correlates to the stadium (whether it be existing contracts for few players, or new signings). Any info would be much appreciated.
As a fan who isn’t “in the know” with data, it honestly doesn’t seem like the new stadium has made a scrap of difference.

In the last full year in WHL staff costs were £125m and in year ending June 2023 (most recent accounts) they were £251m.
Heaven knows how we would be doing now if we had spent £500m less which is the most we could have spent if we stayed at WHL

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Yes, that’s what I said the other day. I think they still like him on a personal level but perhaps questioning his management skills.

All speculations of course!

Probably worth watching Ryan Mason and Matt Wells on the touchline to be blunt

We knew Conte was toast in the Milan game when Mason openly said he didn't have an earthly what Conte was doing when replacing Deki with Sanchez

 

[Tilly'sowner]

Probably worth watching Ryan Mason and Matt Wells on the touchline to be blunt

We knew Conte was toast in the Milan game when Mason openly said he didn't have an earthly what Conte was doing when replacing Deki with Sanchez

I do watch them and they tend to be stony faced! It really doesn’t look like a happy camp!

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

I've been completely clear that money is by far the biggest factor in football outcomes. Luck is most likely the second biggest...

Does that include gipsy curses and being shat on by birds...because this season we've been shat on by the eagles, seagulls and liver birds, so should be rolling in good luck.

Maybe Daniel should take a leaf out of Barry Fry's playbook and piss on the pitch?

 

[Roo]

In the last full year in WHL staff costs were £125m and in year ending June 2023 (most recent accounts) they were £251m.
Heaven knows how we would be doing now if we had spent £500m less which is the most we could have spent if we stayed at WHL

Interesting! Thanks PS.
I don’t quite know how to word what I’m trying to ask, but basically, when it comes to this extra expenditure you mention, are we doing enough based on the relative revenue? Does that make sense?
It’s been pointed out that the wage ceiling hasn’t been raised, which could be causing a problem in terms of attracting the “next level” of player, so I’ve essentially got the same question.
Also, we signed Sanchez tor 40-45m back in 17-18, and since the stadium opened in 19/20, we’ve made 4 or so signings that have cost us between 50-65m (Johnson, Solanke, Richarlison, Ndombele). Is that increase in transfer fee enough where we should see a difference? (Relatively speaking?)

I'm just trying to work out what it is that we’re not doing, because, as I said, it feels like the new stadium hasn’t made us any more competitive. Why is it that many fans including myself feel like this? It just feels like there’s been no change.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Interesting! Thanks PS.
I don’t quite know how to word what I’m trying to ask, but basically, when it comes to this extra expenditure you mention, are we doing enough based on the relative revenue? Does that make sense?
It’s been pointed out that the wage ceiling hasn’t been raised, which could be causing a problem in terms of attracting the “next level” of player, so I’ve essentially got the same question.
Also, we signed Sanchez tor 40-45m back in 17-18, and since the stadium opened in 19/20, we’ve made 4 or so signings that have cost us between 50-65m (Johnson, Solanke, Richarlison, Ndombele). Is that increase in transfer fee enough where we should see a difference? (Relatively speaking?)

I'm just trying to work out what it is that we’re not doing, because, as I said, it feels like the new stadium hasn’t made us any more competitive. Why is it that many fans including myself feel like this? It just feels like there’s been no change.

I think that we're spending more, but so is everyone else and we're not spending very well, for the most part.
Man Utd are in a similar position.