Timeform's greatest

[SwanHills]

Swannie, the ‘stayer’ is long dead and a very sad aspect of Flat Racing.
Why they carry on with ‘caricatures’ like the Gold Cup, Ascot Stakes, and the Queen Alexandre is beyond me- probably because it’s Ascot and their reluctance to break tradition.
The Gold Cup is contested mostly by handicappers and the latter pair by ‘rubbing rags.’

That certainly is very sad indeed. However, the Ascot Gold Cup winners I listed certainly enhanced horseracing in days gone by. A great shame if those days are over for good.

Oh, I just read on the DT (from which I am taking a break) that you are down with the accursed Covid. I wish you a speedy recovery to full health and/or, as they say down here, "Gute Besserung!"

 

[Sir Barney Chuckles]

nor is The New One

Forum favourite, Nicky Henderson, has got his half brother by the way (an unraced 3YO by Champs Elysees). The old boy is monikered The Happy Chapati.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

Only just noticed that the Flat's great Stayers seem to have been totally ignored? One that comes to mind is Alycidon, a top-class Stayer who performed with distinction just after WW2, which included winning the Ascot Gold Cup.

Alycidon was rated 138 in 1949. The list stops at 139.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

......... and the Stayers' Triple Crown. Alcide and Alleged 2 more greats. We've been blessed with some very good horses in our time

Alcide, a son of Alycidon, was rated 136. Alleged was rated 138. I think that you will find that there are a lot of ‘outstanding horses’ rated between 135 and 138 that did not get a mention on a list that stopped at 139. The problem for many stayers is that they never raced against other great stayers and they were never likely to run fast times when winning by five lengths plus eased down against inferior opponents.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

Quite right. I'd add Sagaro at the very least.

Also, why no flat fillies? Remember they get allowances in races.

Timeform is a misnomer now as if time was the yardstick Frankel wouldn't be top.

Sagaro was rated 131 in 1974 as a three year old over shorter trips but his rating had dropped to 129 by 1976.

I went and looked up some famous fillies (confession, most are from my lifetime): Taghrooda 127, Lochsong 129, Treve 129, Salsabil 130, Danedream 131, Oh So Sharp 131, Time Charter 131, Zenyatta 131, Bosra Sham 132, Goldikova 133, Indian Skimmer 133, Miesque 133, Zarkava 133, All Along 134, Enable 134, Petite Etoile 134, Dahlia 135 (when finishing third behind Grundy and Bustino, still beating the old course record herself), Pebbles 135, Allez France 136, Black Caviar 136, Habibti 136. As far as I can tell those last three named are the highest Timeform female horses since they began.

Whilst setting a fast time obviously suggests a fast horse, Timeform does still take into consideration the other quality of handicapping – beating good horses by good distances. Frankel got his 147 rating with his demolition job in the Queen Anne Stakes, prior to which he was rated 143 for his Queen Elizabeth II victory. In a different time, Excelebration would have been a champion with a rating of 133 but had to play second fiddle to Henry Cecil’s star. Just as a measure, Zafonic was rated 134.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

Yes indeed, Ron, sorry I forgot the Stayers' Triple Crown, then, after the three already mentioned, there was a whole plethora of great Stayers who performed with such distinction in thoroughbred horseracing. I have tried my best to name those who were possibly the best of them since WW2. Prior apologies if I have missed any favourites of members:

Gladness, Fighting Charlie, Levmoss, Sagaro (3 consecutive wins 1975-1977), Le Moss, Ardross, Gildoran, Sadeem, Drum Taps, Kayf Tara, Royal Rebel, (Yeats 4 consecutive wins 2006-2009), Stradivarius (3 consecutive 2018-2020).

Again, it just seems so unfair that little or no mention is made of them in Timeform's above listings.

The problem for many stayers is that very few of them raced against each other.

Of those you named, I found Timeform ratings for the following: Sagaro 131, Le Moss 135, Kayf Tara 130, Ardross 134, Levmoss 133, Stradivarius 130, Yeats 128. The fact that Yeats won 4 Gold Cups makes him memorable but look at who he beat...

 

[Ron]

Sagaro was rated 131 in 1974 as a three year old over shorter trips but his rating had dropped to 129 by 1976.

I went and looked up some famous fillies (confession, most are from my lifetime): Taghrooda 127, Lochsong 129, Treve 129, Salsabil 130, Danedream 131, Oh So Sharp 131, Time Charter 131, Zenyatta 131, Bosra Sham 132, Goldikova 133, Indian Skimmer 133, Miesque 133, Zarkava 133, All Along 134, Enable 134, Petite Etoile 134, Dahlia 135 (when finishing third behind Grundy and Bustino, still beating the old course record herself), Pebbles 135, Allez France 136, Black Caviar 136, Habibti 136. As far as I can tell those last three named are the highest Timeform female horses since they began.

Whilst setting a fast time obviously suggests a fast horse, Timeform does still take into consideration the other quality of handicapping – beating good horses by good distances. Frankel got his 147 rating with his demolition job in the Queen Anne Stakes, prior to which he was rated 143 for his Queen Elizabeth II victory. In a different time, Excelebration would have been a champion with a rating of 133 but had to play second fiddle to Henry Cecil’s
star. Just as a measure, Zafonic was rated 134.

Some very memorable fillies/mares there QM. Enable and Pebbles being particular favourites, but who's to say what would have happened if they had all raced against each other (over their right distances)

 

[QuarterMoonII]

Some very memorable fillies/mares there QM. Enable and Pebbles being particular favourites, but who's to say what would have happened if they had all raced against each other (over their right distances)

Some of them did race against each other. I vividly remember Miesque and Indian Skimmer in the Prix de Diane. I knew that Miesque would not stay and backed Indian Skimmer expecting the French filly to be favourite but the bookies made sure Henry Cecil’s grey filly was no gift price in what turned out to be a virtual match.

Pebbles did beat both a Derby winner and a St Leger winner in 1985 but after Sheikh Mohammed bought her in 1984 he avoided racing her against other horses that he owned so she never met Oh So Sharp.

Oh So Sharp and Triptych (missed her off – rated 132) met several times as three year olds with Henry Cecil’s filly finishing ahead every time. Triptych proved to be better as a four year old when trained by Patrick Biancone, including when she finished third in what Timeform classed as the highest quality Arc ever run: all of the first twelve recorded a rating of 120+ with Dancing Brave (140) memorably beating Bering (136). I remember being at York in the rain when Triptych won the International in 1987.

 

[Janabelle13]

Indian Skimmer - brilliant on her day but fragile
Triptych - ran 41 times and never out of the first 3. What might have been if she had not been killed in a freak accident when in foal for the first time

 

[Ron]

Wasn't it Indian Skimmer who was virtually unbeatable on soft ground? Seem to recall seeing her at Ascot

 

[Bustino74]

Sorry my note on Stayers wasn't that they were better racehorses than some of those in the Timeform turf list but they were not considering Stayers as a category in itself (yet there multi categories for NH horses). Le Moss was a brilliant stayer and showed it by beating another great stayer, Ardross, by a half-length or less (sometimes giving weight) three times. Ardross (after Le Moss's retirement) won the same three races then finished 2nd in the Arc. Frankel would have not beaten Le Moss over 20f, for example, even though Frankel was a much better racehorse .

As regards fillies I was only considering a race between a top filly and a top colt. If they took each other on, for example at Epsom in June, then the filly would carry 5lb less. So a filly with a rating of 135 would (all being equal in the race) be expected to beat a colt with a rating of 138. Some would say that's unfair, I say you only have to think about it (and look at the above ratings) to realise fillies are on average a handful of pounds behind colts so they need to have that allowance to even it up. So why not print a category for fillies?

 

[Sir Barney Chuckles]

I think it's great that you can click on any of the horses to get an article on the horse, especially for the younger generation, for whom most of the names will be unfamiliar

Although several were well before the first appearance of my good self the only one that I'd never heard of was Papa Fourway. Clicked on the link and will confirm that the accompanying article was very, very good and highly informative, people.

A win at Birmingham racecourse certainly dates the horse (was a 3YO in 1955 when winning at the venue) but some things never change. Royal Ascot took place a month later than usual that year - because of a train strike!!!