Timeform's greatest
- Thread starter Ron
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Just noticed Hurricane Fly is not on the hurdlers list ............ and isn't it statistically improbable that chasers are rated so much higher than hurdlers?
And so he should be. Ask Olivier PeslierIt’s ok though, Harbinger is
. Taken at this year's Arc
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Timeform rate Nijinksy at 138, so he just missed out on a list that stops at 139, despite Timeform defining an “outstanding horse” as rated 135-9. No space for the controversial Hawk Wing – rated 136 for one stellar performance in the Lockinge. Baaeed was rated 137 last time I saw a figure for him.
Interestingly only one American horse made the list. Flightline is rated 143 but presumably is missing as this year’s final figures have not been issued. No American Pharoah (138), no Cigar (138) and no California Chrome (138, half length second to Arrogate in 2016 Breeders’ Cup Classic). Timeform have only been doing figures for American racing since 1993 so the likes of Triple Crown winners Secretariat (fastest Kentucky Derby, fastest Belmont Stakes), Seattle Slew and Affirmed have no rating. Secretariat beat the clock so many times over so many distances he would surely be up there. Anybody remember that Breeders’ Cup duel between Ferdinand and Alysheba (1987) “the two Kentucky Derby winners hit the wire together ... in a dramatic photo finish in the world’s richest horse race”? Alysheba won it the following year and also became the only American horse to win three ten furlong races in less than two minutes so had Timeform been active in 1988 he would surely be very highly rated.
The highest rating I can find for Hurricane Fly is 171 so he does not make a Hurdlers’ list that stops at 175. The highest I can find for The New One is 163 – he was beaten seven lengths by Faugheen (176) – somebody with a Timeform subscription may be able to find a higher rating amongst his 18 wins but I reckon not many staying hurdlers beat the clock.
Always a matter of opinion.
For me, Frankel doesn’t deserve to be the top rated. Brilliant though he was, his opposition was pretty poor, apart from Excelebration and Cirrus Des Aigles- and the latter was beaten in over 40 races.
Over hurdles, the best one I saw isn’t even in that list. Eddie O’Grady’s Golden Cygnet, Supreme Novices winner, was tragically killed at Ayr when cantering over Sea Pigeon and Co. Jonjo O’Neill would confirm that.
Over the jumps, Ron mentions the brilliance of Dunkirk,rated 186.
Why isn’t Buona Notte in that list. He slaughtered Dunkirk at levels as a novice; beat future Gold Cup winner Fort Leney in the first running of the RSA Chase- then Totalisator Chase; and finished just in front of Arkle in the Massey Ferguson, albeit receiving 26 lbs. Excepting his tragic demise, he would almost certainly have been Arkle’s successor.
For me, Frankel doesn’t deserve to be the top rated. Brilliant though he was, his opposition was pretty poor, apart from Excelebration and Cirrus Des Aigles- and the latter was beaten in over 40 races.
Over hurdles, the best one I saw isn’t even in that list. Eddie O’Grady’s Golden Cygnet, Supreme Novices winner, was tragically killed at Ayr when cantering over Sea Pigeon and Co. Jonjo O’Neill would confirm that.
Over the jumps, Ron mentions the brilliance of Dunkirk,rated 186.
Why isn’t Buona Notte in that list. He slaughtered Dunkirk at levels as a novice; beat future Gold Cup winner Fort Leney in the first running of the RSA Chase- then Totalisator Chase; and finished just in front of Arkle in the Massey Ferguson, albeit receiving 26 lbs. Excepting his tragic demise, he would almost certainly have been Arkle’s successor.
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In the days of Phil Bull, Timeform was the Horse Racing Bible
Since then, I'm not sure what to call it. Most of the time they can't even assess 2 horses in the same race
......... and the Stayers' Triple Crown. Alcide and Alleged 2 more greats. We've been blessed with some very good horses in our time
Quite right. I'd add Sagaro at the very least.
Also, why no flat fillies? Remember they get allowances in races.
Timeform is a misnomer now as if time was the yardstick Frankel wouldn't be top.
Yes indeed, Ron, sorry I forgot the Stayers' Triple Crown, then, after the three already mentioned, there was a whole plethora of great Stayers who performed with such distinction in thoroughbred horseracing. I have tried my best to name those who were possibly the best of them since WW2. Prior apologies if I have missed any favourites of members:
Gladness, Fighting Charlie, Levmoss, Sagaro (3 consecutive wins 1975-1977), Le Moss, Ardross, Gildoran, Sadeem, Drum Taps, Kayf Tara, Royal Rebel, (Yeats 4 consecutive wins 2006-2009), Stradivarius (3 consecutive 2018-2020).
Again, it just seems so unfair that little or no mention is made of them in Timeform's above listings.
I just cannot agree with that above opinion from you at all. I can only surmise that one of the Waley-Cohen's is your favourite dentist. Probably was 'expertly handled' by a good trainer who got the best out of him. But 'one of the best horses to grace the 21st century'? Just no way. Good grief, no!
Swannie, the ‘stayer’ is long dead and a very sad aspect of Flat Racing.
Why they carry on with ‘caricatures’ like the Gold Cup, Ascot Stakes, and the Queen Alexandre is beyond me- probably because it’s Ascot and their reluctance to break tradition.
The Gold Cup is contested mostly by handicappers and the latter pair by ‘rubbing rags.’