Timeform on Kingman

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Bluesky9 said:
I would go for kingman in that race by the way, When he won over a mile so easily in the Irish Guineas it suggested that although he does have a scintillating burst he also stayed a true mile.

On your point about a horse remaining unbeaten risks not winning the hearts and minds of the punters I think it depends on what the public see. Frankel for instance retired unbeaten and whilst people can suggest he was protected the collateral form suggests he was the best and people will likely always regard him as such. Camalot even before coming unstuck in a sub standard St Leger was pulling the wool over only a few people's eyes even though unbeaten. I think beaten or not is the be all and end all, we know when a horse is avoiding the real tests that could be found. We respect needs of ground etc but we can also see a dodge. This is why Tagroodah is rightly lauded as she could have taken in a much easier option in the Irish Oaks but instead took on the boys and older horses...... and won.
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Yes Blue and tomorrow Australia is taking on the two horses she beat at Ascot...what "dodge" or am I missing something?

12f is not Austarlia's trip imo and one could argue that Taghrooda is taking the soft option tomorrow or is she allowed to be campaigned hence forth exclusively at home and over one trip?..she has won over 10f this year after all.

Australia also put his credentials on the line over a trip too short in the 2000.

He ran in the Irish Derby because he is Irish trained and Magnier has always supported the race.

Absolutely fascinating to see how tomorrow pans out.

I'm still unconvinced by the Derby form and wouldn't have a washer on Australia at those odds.

I'm also still very much the unconverted regardless of the Coolmore rhetoric.
 
I do not agree with the opinion being implied by Timeform that Kingman lost at Newmarket because of dodgy stamina. I think he was in front too soon and was not helped by the fact that the field had split into two groups and the most critical factor may have been the fast ground. I can appreciate the idea that his stamina should be tested because his pedigree contains little of it and we learned next to nothing in the Sussex Stakes or the Prix Jacques le Marois. They could have gone for the July Cup (and won it) rather than risk the dry ground at Goodwood; not sure why they did not.

I can only see Australia dropping back to a mile rather than going for the Champion Stakes if the ground is against John Gosden’s charge. Whoever does contest the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes there will surely be a pacemaker in the field – it might even pay dividends for Kingman if his connections ran one so he could show how much superior he is to the others.
 
Dex, the dodge comment was referring to what I feel Coolmore attempted with Camelot rather than Australia. I am pleased he is running tomorrow against his older peers and those beaten by Tagroodah, as it will provide some form. I am very disappointed that J. Gosden has taken out his horse as I believe it would have presented the stiffest opposition. I felt it was ridden poorly at Ascot and ridden nearer the pace at York would have offered Australia a good test. On the other side the trip tomorrow is better suited than the KG for Mukadram which will allow him to offer his best which he was not able to over 12f.

It will be an interesting race to watch and like you I would not risk a penny on Australia nor would I risk a penny against it. It will be the race where we see really what the horse has got. Up until now there is no form of consequence aside from the Guineas. After tomorrow we will be able to see if this is a potential star or another over hyped but decent enough 3 year old.
 
I don't think Timeform were implying that QM. They are just stating the fact that the only time he was beaten was in a race with a strong pace.

Their opinion was that given his incredible speed, what on earth are connections of the opposition doing trying to beat him off a slow pace. I mean, the race was over as soon as we saw the pace they were going.

I would like to see him win a really strongly run race (ie the scenario that Blue posted with 2 pacemakers ensuring an end to end gallop); it's the only way to find out if a horse is as good as we believe him to be. Otherwise opinions become split between those who are impressed and are sure he could do it and those who like to think he could do it but are aware that he hasn't actually done it.
 
Bluesky9 said:
Dex, the dodge comment was referring to what I feel Coolmore attempted with Camelot rather than Australia. I am pleased he is running tomorrow against his older peers and those beaten by Tagroodah, as it will provide some form. I am very disappointed that J. Gosden has taken out his horse as I believe it would have presented the stiffest opposition. I felt it was ridden poorly at Ascot and ridden nearer the pace at York would have offered Australia a good test. On the other side the trip tomorrow is better suited than the KG for Mukadram which will allow him to offer his best which he was not able to over 12f.

It will be an interesting race to watch and like you I would not risk a penny on Australia nor would I risk a penny against it. It will be the race where we see really what the horse has got. Up until now there is no form of consequence aside from the Guineas. After tomorrow we will be able to see if this is a potential star or another over hyped but decent enough 3 year old.
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Blue <ok>.
 
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