Time to WAKE UP Gooners

[Arsenal87]

Oh. Ok. We haven't won it, therefore we can't. I bow to the maturity of your argument.

Chelsea aren't a better team than us (look at the league for proof). I said we're good enough to challenge for trophies. We are. If you're arguing against that, you're either an idiot or like I said ... somebody we could do without in the fan club.

I showed actual statistics showing there's no reason to share your optimism, stats you fail to respond to, because you know they shatter your arguments. Get this through your head, ending 19 points behind the leaders says your not title contenders, get it? You really expect people to believe we are title contenders after ending 19 points behind the leaders? After ending the past 4 seasons in the double digits behind the leaders? So the only showing who's the idiot here, is yourself, you must the dumbest idiot around to look at those numbers and then say, HEY LADS, WE'VE GOT A CHANCE NOW!

 

[Jayram_Football]

Well I'm hoping that he does strengthen the squad and improve the defence and we win something. I can't see us winning the league ahead of City and I think Utd and Chelsea will strengthen in the summer, so an improvement on 3rd is going to be tough. I think the FA cup and the Champions League are realistic targets though.

If we do finish 4th, with no trophy, then we'd have to look at why that was. Was it because the board didn't sanction moves, or sold our best player (personally I think we should keep RVP for the final year of his contract if he doesn't sign) or because we didn't address our defensive frailties, or because like this year we had long term injuries to key players. But ultimately a top 4 place isn't something to be scoffed at.

I want us to be achieving more, but ultimately it's not completely in the manager's control as to whether it happens. He has to take accountability for it, but he's not responsible for all of the nuances that happen throughout the season and in the transfer windows, there are many factors at play.

Would I stay loyal to Wenger if we finished 4th and won nothing? Like I say, I would have to assess what factors were responsible for it, rather than pin all of the blame on the manager.

That's about as non committal as you can get. Given that we'll never know what all the nuances are, it would seem that you are giveing Wenger a get out clause from his accountability no matter what happens.

How many seasons of no trophies would need to go by before you put those 'nuances' out of the equation and called for managerial change? After all, as you say, its Wenger that is accountable - he can't be lauded for his early successes and then let off his failures because of 'nuances'

 

[Arsenal87]

That's about as non committal as you can get. Given that we'll never know what all the nuances are, it would seem that you are giveing Wenger a get out clause from his accountability no matter what happens.

How many seasons of no trophies would need to go by before you put those 'nuances' out of the equation and called for managerial change? After all, as you say, its Wenger that is accountable - he can't be lauded for his early successes and then let off his failures because of 'nuances'

Maybe 10 might be their number, I don't say that as a joke, and it's getting closer too, if we end with nothing next year, it would be 8 years with no trophy, just 2 away from 10.

 

[Jayram_Football]

Maybe 10 might be their number, I don't say that as a joke, and it's getting closer too, if we end with nothing next year, it would be 8 years with no trophy, just 2 away from 10.

I've asked this question before and never got an answer. It's tied to the original intent of this thread. Each year goes by and some just keep lowering expectations, making excuses as to why we are not achieving.

Put it this way - lets go back to the end of 2003/4. How many people at that point were saying... "wow, if we can just finish top 4 for the nxt 8 years, we dont need any trophies". It's a sobering question because it highlights just how far people have allowed ther expectations to fall.

 

[Arsenal87]

I've asked this question before and never got an answer. It's tied to the original intent of this thread. Each year goes by and some just keep lowering expectations, making excuses as to why we are not achieving.

Put it this way - lets go back to the end of 2003/4. How many people at that point were saying... "wow, if we can just finish top 4 for the nxt 8 years, we dont need any trophies". It's a sobering question because it highlights just how far people have allowed ther expectations to fall.

Wenger himself was already massively lowering expectations before we had third placed wrapped up, trying to talk up the Europa League, I'm sure many on here would have started to sing the same song had we failed to qualify for the UCL. We have already massively lowered expectations by considering getting top 4 a success, when in fact it has always been the bare minimum and something of a given with a top club as ourself, but even that's slipped away from us now.

 

[Jayram_Football]

Wenger himself was already massively lowering expectations before we had third placed wrapped up, trying to talk up the Europa League, I'm sure many on here would have started to sing the same song had we failed to qualify for the UCL. We have already massively lowered expectations by considering getting top 4 a success, when in fact it has always been the bare minimum and something of a given with a top club as ourself, but even that's slipped away from us now.

I think Wenger knew what he was doing with that EL quote - and you know what, I bet there would indeed be some fans in 5 years, if we won nothing but dropped further down the league, saying how well we'd done to stay top 6 for 12-13 years.

 

[PINKIE]

That's about as non committal as you can get. Given that we'll never know what all the nuances are, it would seem that you are giveing Wenger a get out clause from his accountability no matter what happens.

How many seasons of no trophies would need to go by before you put those 'nuances' out of the equation and called for managerial change? After all, as you say, its Wenger that is accountable - he can't be lauded for his early successes and then let off his failures because of 'nuances'

No, I'm saying that the intelligent approach would be to assess the events on their own merits. It's too rigid to say 'win a trophy you stay, don't and your sacked'. For example Wenger could take us to the CL final and we lose on pens or we could be pipped to the title by a last minute goal (as Utd were) Sacking the manager then because it was another trophyless season would be counter productive. Also if you want to change the manager, you have to be sure that what you're bringing in would be better. Any assessment of Wenger's position would have to be taken in that context too.

It's easy to get rid of people, but it's a mistaken belief that it will instantly improve a team. Look at Liverpool and Spurs, they've had more managers than I've had hot dinners in the time that Wenger has been with Arsenal - how has it improved them ?

Like I say, there are many factors at play in determining whether a club wins trophies or not. Assessing whether the manager is responsible or if other factors are - is the key to determining whether you stick with your manager or bring in another one.

 

[Arsenal87]

I think Wenger knew what he was doing with that EL quote - and you know what, I bet there would indeed be some fans in 5 years, if we won nothing but dropped further down the league, saying how well we'd done to stay top 6 for 12-13 years.

They go on about how well we have done for managing to remain a top 4 side for 15 years now, what they fail to realise is that Manunited have done the same thing, while consistently challenging and winning for silverware, now THAT is something I call a major success to be proud of. Maintaining your spot while winning things.

And there's no reason Arsenal shouldn't be there, this argument of how we don't have the resources is BULL, we might be not be as rich as Manu, but we have the resources to compete alongside them, and the resources to win things. That was the whole point of the Emirates! If we could compete at Highbury, you telling me we can't compete at the Emirates which has more than doubled to tripled our revenues?

 

[Jayram_Football]

No, I'm saying that the intelligent approach would be to assess the events on their own merits. It's too rigid to say 'win a trophy you stay, don't and your sacked'. For example Wenger could take us to the CL final and we lose on pens or we could be pipped to the title by a last minute goal (as Utd were) Sacking the manager then because it was another trophyless season would be counter productive. Also if you want to change the manager, you have to be sure that what you're bringing in would be better. Any assessment of Wenger's position would have to be taken in that context too.

It's easy to get rid of people, but it's a mistaken belief that it will instantly improve a team. Look at Liverpool and Spurs, they've had more managers than I've had hot dinners in the time that Wenger has been with Arsenal - how has it improved them ?

Like I say, there are many factors at play in determining whether a club wins trophies or not. Assessing whether the manager is responsible or if other factors are - is the key to determining whether you stick with your manager or bring in another one.

Well I would agree with the last minute goal / penalty loss view, but certainly not the back office goings on that we'll never know about.

You can never be certain about new managers, but sticking with failure because you fear you might get worse is not a good strategy.

So what if we didnt even challenge for a trophy like this year? Wenger out, then?

 

[Jayram_Football]

They go on about how well we have done for managing to remain a top 4 side for 15 years now, what they fail to realise is that Manunited have done the same thing, while consistently challenging and winning for silverware, now THAT is something I call a major success to be proud of. Maintaining your spot while winning things.

And there's no reason Arsenal shouldn't be there, this argument of how we don't have the resources is BULL, we might be not be as rich as Manu, but we have the resources to compete alongside them, and the resources to win things. That was the whole point of the Emirates! If we could compete at Highbury, you telling me we can't compete at the Emirates which has more than doubled to tripled our revenues?

I dont think anyone actually believes the money argument - but it is a handy excuse.

 

[PINKIE]

So what if we didnt even challenge for a trophy like this year? Wenger out, then?

Again, you'd have to look at why. If the board prevented Wenger from bringing in players that could make the difference, then perhaps a change at board level would be more pragmatic than sacking the manager.

 

[Arsenal87]

No, I'm saying that the intelligent approach would be to assess the events on their own merits. It's too rigid to say 'win a trophy you stay, don't and your sacked'. For example Wenger could take us to the CL final and we lose on pens or we could be pipped to the title by a last minute goal (as Utd were) Sacking the manager then because it was another trophyless season would be counter productive. Also if you want to change the manager, you have to be sure that what you're bringing in would be better. Any assessment of Wenger's position would have to be taken in that context too.

It's easy to get rid of people, but it's a mistaken belief that it will instantly improve a team. Look at Liverpool and Spurs, they've had more managers than I've had hot dinners in the time that Wenger has been with Arsenal - how has it improved them ?

Like I say, there are many factors at play in determining whether a club wins trophies or not. Assessing whether the manager is responsible or if other factors are - is the key to determining whether you stick with your manager or bring in another one.

All right, that's fair enough....But the fact is, over the past few seasons we have consistently failed at winning things not because of being unlucky in a penalty shoot out. In fact we barely even make it to the finals of any competition other than the Carling Cup! We have failed to win things because of weak mental fragile players. We have failed to win things because we constantly sell our best players. We have failed to win things because we have constantly failed in replacing our sold players, we always get a weaker option in replacement. We have failed to win things because we have constantly failed to change our game when needed, as Wenger says, he doesn't watch other teams, always goes in with the same mentality and tactic, that's just plain stupid. We're not failing because we have been unlucky, we are failing because we are simply not good enough, due to the bad decisions of Wenger and the board. One prime example is not going for Juan Mata, how good would he have been for us in comparison to Gervino and Arshavin?

 

[Jayram_Football]

Again, you'd have to look at why. If the board prevented Wenger from bringing in players that could make the difference, then perhaps a change at board level would be more pragmatic than sacking the manager.

But we would never know that.

This position is the same as saying Wenger stays no matter what happens - we can always blame someone else.

 

[Arsenal87]

Again, you'd have to look at why. If the board prevented Wenger from bringing in players that could make the difference, then perhaps a change at board level would be more pragmatic than sacking the manager.

You can't blame the board for everything, there are clear tactical problems on the pitch, which goes down to Wenger. The same with mentally weak players, that's down to Wenger, it's his job as a manager to make those players stand up and be counted, it's what Mourinho and SAF manage to do. When players keep bottling it over and over again, questions have to be asked of management, why aren't they solving the problem after all this time? Why do players still display fragility?

 

[PINKIE]

All right, that's fair enough....But the fact is, over the past few seasons we have consistently failed at winning things not because of being unlucky in a penalty shoot out. In fact we barely even make it to the finals of any competition other than the Carling Cup! We have failed to win things because of weak mental fragile players. We have failed to win things because we constantly sell our best players. We have failed to win things because we have constantly failed in replacing our sold players, we always get a weaker option in replacement. We have failed to win things because we have constantly failed to change our game when needed, as Wenger says, he doesn't watch other teams, always goes in with the same mentality and tactic, that's just plain stupid. We're not failing because we have been unlucky, we are failing because we are simply not good enough, due to the bad decisions of Wenger and the board. One prime example is not going for Juan Mata, how good would he have been for us in comparison to Gervino and Arshavin?

I don't disagree with any of that.

 

[PINKIE]

You can't blame the board for everything, there are clear tactical problems on the pitch, which goes down to Wenger. The same with mentally weak players, that's down to Wenger, it's his job as a manager to make those players stand up and be counted, it's what Mourinho and SAF manage to do. When players keep bottling it over and over again, questions have to be asked of management, why aren't they solving the problem after all this time? Why do players still display fragility?

I agree, there are tactical issues to sort out and that is down to Wenger. I've already outlined where I think he needs to make changes. I also agree about players who aren't fit for purpose, they either need to demonstrate that they can cut it or be shipped out (that is a board issue too however)

 

[PINKIE]

But we would never know that.

This position is the same as saying Wenger stays no matter what happens - we can always blame someone else.

No, that's another example of rigid thinking. It makes more sense to actually analyse what needs to change, rather than just assuming that it's the manager.

 

[Jayram_Football]

No, that's another example of rigid thinking. It makes more sense to actually analyse what needs to change, rather than just assuming that it's the manager.

After 8 years the analysing really needs to stop. I'd hate another seaosn of failure to be followed by even more analysis of where we went wrong. It's Wenger who is accountable here - no one else. Thats what being a football manager is about - he gets a paid a fortune to succeed. If he fails over and over again to win anything - where does it stop?

Thats the question - how many years of analysis do we need?

 

[Bergkamp a Dutch master]

you forget - he might be seen as failing on the pitch - but not on the share holder value assessment.
Silent Stan just loves him.

 

[PINKIE]

After 8 years the analysing really needs to stop. I'd hate another seaosn of failure to be followed by even more analysis of where we went wrong. It's Wenger who is accountable here - no one else. Thats what being a football manager is about - he gets a paid a fortune to succeed. If he fails over and over again to win anything - where does it stop?

Thats the question - how many years of analysis do we need?

Why would anyone ditch analysis? That's the process you use to understand and determine what course of action to take next. It's a basic principle, not something that needs to be thrown out in exasperation at not winning anything. That's just poor thinking. If Wenger really is the problem, then by all means call for him to be replaced, but don't throw out the process of analysis, otherwise you make uninformed and knee jerk decisions based on unsound parameters.