Time to scrap points deductions for administration?

Not the amount of debt that matters, it's the business's ability to service it.

Man Utd £800m in debt but that's (barely) sustainable for them.

 

Yes but what i'm saying is, it would far easier to go into admin to wipe some debt off without the points deduction. Why would teams choose to service their debt when they could go into admin with no penalties.

 

This is precisely the point I was trying to make. It is simply not working as a deterant and does not target thouse who should be accountable. Another point that I would like to make is that the timing of the deduction of points is also skewed. If you immediately deduct the points, it is an attempt to bring parity for those teams who are competing in the same league. As I said previously, this is arbitary insofar that teams who have not previously fulfilled their fixture against the team being punished are being given an unfair advantage. If you deduct the points at the end of the season, 6 of the teams over whom the financially irregular team with a supposed superior squad have either been relegated or promoted. Despite the argument made above, they would not be compensated by seeing this reval getting a points deducted in the following season. Furthermore, 6 teams who weren't in competition are compensated with relegation and promotion in the opposite direction! Assuming the offending team got relegated and then received a penalty deduction, this would compensate only two other teams who went down with the club and the rest of a league over whom the offending clubv had not benefit. Mathematically, the deduction of points prejudices certain competitors and favours other - the argument made in this respect cannot be sustained.

As stated, the deduction of points has not worked as a deterent and it's effects are arbitary. It is not preventing clubs from being poorly run and only serves to exacerbate the problem.

 

You know the rules.Pompey have got off lightly with the deductions so think yourself lucky .............................

 

So the point of this thread has just gone right over you head then?

 

I do agree 10 points deduction is not enough tho. It should be automatic religation or a heavier points deduction.

 

The problem with heavy points deductions is that it becomes ridiculous like it did with Luton a few years back. Taking 20 or 30 points from a team has a negative effect on the league as it destroys much of the specticle. Relegation is a concievable punishment but you couldn't do it in the middle of a season, you'd have to wait til the end of the season or throw a club out of the league until the season ends.

 

Of course points deductions act as a deterrent, otherwise all clubs with debts would go into admin, with a prepack in place, to reduce debts. The reason clubs go into administration for a second time is that usually it is an entirely new set of owners, and they have not been checked out to ensure they have the funds (and they are legit) to continue to fund their new toy. Perhaps the answer is that every owner has to lodge a Bond with the FL (in the same way as travel companies have the ABTA bond) such that all debts can be paid in the event of melt down.

 

Perhaps, instead of a set number of points being deducted, the penalty should be x% of their final points tally (rounded up or down to the nearest point). This would make the penalty more relevant to the club's actual status in the table.

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A good point. <run>

 

Simple really. When you cheat and get caught out you get punished. Financial cheating is as bad as athletes taking performance enhancing drugs.

 

Which you do for the purpose of eliminating anyone who doesn't share your opinions and isn't 100% sympathetic...

(yeah I'm posting... feel free to delete, but at least read the point and respond eh?)

 

Accepting that some kind of punishment needs to meted out, there are arguments both for and against the points penalty. The argument in favour is that the penalty reflects the advantage that has been taken by using superior players than could not be afforded.

However, to take any number of points as a straight penalty can be seen as just arbitary. It could be made fairer by reallocating those points to other teams, let's say Pompey finish with 50 points before deduction this season, ending up with a final total of 40 points, meaning that the final deuction is 20%. So, if we have taken 6 points off a team with a goal difference of 3, that team would get an additional 1.2 points to their tally and an increase to their goal difference of 0.6. If we have not taken any points then that team would get no increase.

It might seem silly to have fractions of a point or goal difference but the adjustment would only be made at the end of the season. However, that way the final table would take full account of the penalty and would answer the argument made on this thread that the points deduction has an effect on subsequent performances and skews the final table.

Speaking personally I accept the penalty we have received and am quite surprised it wasn't more. I don't want relegation but if it means we end up with a club without all the baggage of recent years, most real fans will take it.

 

We have prison and capital punishment in this world, but people still break the law.

The directors who take the club into administration are not necessarily the ones who are responsible. Southampton being a case in point. Rupert Lowe made some poor business decisions, but over spending was not one of them.
As much as my fellow fans might disagree, legal proceedings against Rupert Lowe would of been unfair.

Points deduction is a clear and work able punishment

 

The argument of points deductions being unfair to the fans and employees of a club is one I wholeheartedly agree with. Many good cases have been made here both for and against the deductions and one post has mentioned Luton. Well Luton were deducted 20 points for "financial irregularities". These irregularities involved a Director paying a fee to an agent in a brown envelope off the books. Can anyone justify how the resulting 20 point deduction was fair to the fans?

 

With the FFP rules coming in next season, this should address many aspects of spending what can be afforded and I think this in conjunction with the points penalty (which in my view should be relegation) will see many clubs not fall into the debt trap and spend more than they can afford.

I heard sometime ago that Germany had auto relegation for clubs who are in financial distress. Anyone else heard that?

The Owners and Directors Test has always been a self assessment on objective issues, not subjective, so Im surprised at the OP's stance. It's not up to the league to choose owners or to say to clubs how they spend money.
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Now there's an administration I'd like to see dealt with.

 

We were hit by a points deduction in the year following administration because of bad timing and the fact that we couldn't manage to avoid relegation by winning enough matches (which wouild have meant a points deduction in that year and not the next). I didn't jump up and down and blame the authorities...they were the rules. The fault was in our management and the players for not saving us.

 

Interesting thread. In many European countries clubs have licenses to play and when their finances, which are all available to be seen there is no hiding clubs inside holding companies, go wrong the licences can be withdrawn. Cases in point were certainly RWDM in Belgium, and Fiorentina and and Austrian club were demoted for financial irregularities in their accounts. I am not saying that this should happen in England but it is a thought.

I understand that arriving in a higher league a club wishes to stay at the higher level but to spend completely outside the clubs rescources is foolish and needs to be stopped. This is difficult when the clubs are the play thing of a rich individual and they get over excited in the short period. I know nothing of Southamptons finances or Portsmouth's but having knowledge of the Liebherrs I think that Southampton, after all their troubles will now be on a much more stable and sustaining piece of ground than Portsmouth were or are. My club has had problems caused mainly by directors arguing amongst themselves which almost caused administration so I know some of the emotions you were or are feeling.

Whatever does happen it is always the fans who will suffer. Points deduction could end with a club falling to a lower division or suspension of directors could stop what money is coming from them with the club failing.

Good luck to Portsmouth I hope the club can find someone to help them who has a great interest in football and not making a fast profit and to Southampton in the Premiership as I cannot really see you remaining in the Championship for very long.

 

1st point - nobody has said that the points deduction Portsmouth have been given is unfair. The rules governing administration state that points deductions are mandatory. Nobody has said a word against that.

2nd point - nobody has placed the blame for Portsmouth going into administration solely on the Football League. The blame being attributed to the Football League is purely one of responsibility. They allowed a man of whom there existed serious doubts about the legitimacy of the way he amassed his fortune to take over the club without investigating him in any real capacity except to see if he had money or any criminal convictions. They did not do their part in protecting a member of the league - the same was true when that charleton took over Notts County a few years back claiming to have a fortune but actually having nothing, the Football League didn't investigate him either.

3rd point - the question of this thread is whether points deductions are forfilling the job it is intended to. Does it act as a deterant to other clubs who would attempt to overspend? Its stops clubs going to administration until the debt becomes completely unmanagable for fear of losing points, but the fact that the majority of Premier League clubs operated every year under massive levels of debt and most Championship club also operate in high levels of debt every year would suggest that the point deductions do nothing to dissuade anyone from overspending.