The way forward

[remembercolinlee]

Every matchday thread ends up with us dissecting what is wrong and what needs to be done.

I have repeated a post I made on the City match thread cos it may be better to have a place to discuss this without matchday threads becoming derailed.

.........

The season is gone.

I have no idea who we can get in to solve this car crash of a team.
We need;
a new keeper
at least 2 CD
2 wingbacks
A Defensive Midfielder

Even if we were to win the Caribou Cup by some miracle it won't keep Kane or Son.

Last time we won it Berbatov and and Keane couldn't wait to leg it.

The similarities with Ramos in 2008 is strong.

A good keeper and fans favourite goes down the toilet, a very unbalanced team, players on the downside of their careers and a manager that does not inspire the players or the fans..

Our last 17 matches
7 wins 7 losses 3 draws.

The wins include Stoke, Brentford, Marine, Wycombe, WBA and Sheffield United...that's a tier 8 club, 3 championship clubs and 2 of the worst Premier league clubs in the past decade.

The draws were with :
Wolves, Palace, Fulham,

The loses were Liverpool, Liverpool, Everton, City, Brighton, Leicester and Chelsea.

31 scored (14 in 4 games against lower league team)
23 conceded (2 in 4 games against lower league teams)

Against Premier league teams it's
P 13 W3 D3 L7 F17 A21

In the Premier league it's
P12 W3 D3 L6 F 12 A17 pts 12

As a comparison point...

Pochettino's last 17 games were:
P17 W6 D5 L6 (1 on pens) F31 A26
2 of those wins and 9 goals were against a terrible Red Star Belgrade team.
We also suffered our worse ever home defeat (2-7 to Bayern Munich) and lost on penalties to league 1 Cheltenham.

His last 12 league games were...
P12 W3 D5 L4 F18 A17 pts 14

Pochettino had been our manager for 5 and a half years.

Tim Sherwoods last 20 games
P20 W9 D3 L8 F33 A31
His last 16 league games were....
P12 W6 D1 L5 F19 A19 pts 19

Sherwood had been our manager for 7 months.

AVBs last
P18 W7 D4 L6 F17 A26
His last 12 league games were
P12 W5 D3 L4 F11 A20 pts 18
AVB had been our manager for 16 months.

JM has been our manager for 15 months.

For me...if the others deserved to be sacked then serious questions need to be asked re JM.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I said it elsewhere a few days ago, but there's one thing that haunts me about the summer of 2019: with the exception of Levy suggesting we sign Youri Tielemans, which Poch rejected (per Dan KP) I cannot recall us being strongly linked with any DMs that summer, even though it was abundantly clear that we needed a complete rebuild of our midfield for the entire season beforehand due to Dembele and Wanyama declining horrifically

And even though we were short the expected £60-75m we were surely banking on receiving that summer for the sales of Eriksen and Toby (and we can probably add Wanyama to that list, TBH), we clearly still had at least £60m in the bank to pursue signing Dybala that summer, and surely that would have been better spent on stiffening up our midfield - something Poch clearly knew was needed, given the tactical switch we made at the start of last season (and that's the last I'm going to say on that sodding formation...) - and yet we didn't

Ultimately that's the fatal mistake that has yet to be rectified, and it's not only leaving our defence exposed but also plays a big role in our inability to control midfield unless we're playing teams that are sitting back

 

[PowerSpurs]

You need well over a hundred matches to judge a manager properly on statistics alone. However, I think a better method is to judge him on whether he us delivering on what he said he would do when he got the job. Only Levy knows exactly what that was, but Jose made a number of public statements about being excited to manage the group of players that we had. I don't think he has looked after the group effectively. Nor have his signings made any discernible improvement. So I would expect him to be sacked sooner rather than later.

 

[Billy The Spur]

Nothing will change until ENIC pack their bags and fack off, so its pointless getting any hopes up. Levy has appointed 3 good managers (who were able to over achieve with the tools at their disposal) in 20 years, and one of those was BMJ, who was originally a number 2, so he got lucky there. These owners have taken it as far as they can, and after 20 years, us Spurs fans have suffered long enough, it is time for a takeover, it is the only way Spurs will get to the very top. Look at what Spurs are up against, we have media darlings Pool and United dragged up the league by the officials every year and the financial doping at City and Chelsea, that`s 4 clubs we have to try and finish above on Levy`s thrifty budget. It is time to sell out for as much money as possible, and I don`t care where the money comes from.

 

[The Huddlefro]

I haven’t caught up on the match thread for a bit but the points I’ve reiterated over the last few games are:

1) we have a lot of players who simply aren’t consistent enough to form the core of a team. I’m not asking for everyone to be 8 or 9 out of 10 every game but you need a mix of those alongside consistent 6s or above because that lets you plan how to set up the team. Sanchez and Aurier are perhaps the best examples of this. They can look brilliant one minute and daft the next. Sanchez showed this in the City game earlier with an excellent block, followed later with him completely losing it for the Gundogan goal over the top.

2) we have no plan or structure in how we attack when we have the ball for more time than it takes to look for the quick transition to Son and Kane. This means we either lose the ball by trying to break when it’s not on, and end up falling back on our inconsistent defence far too much, or we keep it recycling round the back. On the ball, if we manage to hold it for a while, the passing isn’t crisp, the movement is often non-existent ahead of the player in possession, and the two midfielders who can break a press are either injured or playing out of position as a 10.

It’s a mess and it’s compounded by the squad management issues that have been discussed to death here too. Many of the players are to blame for simply not being good enough, Jose’s coaching and tactics and selections and subs have to be questioned at this point, and Levy, Hitchin and the rest deserve a share too for the way they’ve allowed issues in the squad to manifest themselves to the point they are now.

Part of me almost wonders what it would be like to sell Kane and/or Son if they really did want to go just to help us fund the rebuild but the reality is that to do so would be lunacy because the rebuild needs outgoings more than funds for incoming players. I genuinely think that with a coach prepared to play more to the team’s strengths, and a single top class CB in place to help us with the defensive side of things, this team is capable of top 4 (ie consistent performances in a strong league) and trophies (which ultimately are down to the vagaries of a cup run and while we all want them, are no real indicators of a team’s actual quality). Right now we are only looking like achieving the latter.

This might sound like a weird way to slate Jose’s Spurs as we all want to win trophies, but if we were to win the League Cup this season and finish 8th-10th it would be the perfect summation of what we have become under Jose - a massively inconsistent team with one or two world class players who can pull a performance out against anyone on their day, but can’t hold up under the pressure of a league campaign.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Nothing will change until ENIC pack their bags and fack off, so its pointless getting any hopes up. Levy has appointed 3 good managers (who were able to over achieve with the tools at their disposal) in 20 years, and one of those was BMJ, who was originally a number 2, so he got lucky there. These owners have taken it as far as they can, and after 20 years, us Spurs fans have suffered long enough, it is time for a takeover, it is the only way Spurs will get to the very top. Look at what Spurs are up against, we have media darlings Pool and United dragged up the league by the officials every year and the financial doping at City and Chelsea, that`s 4 clubs we have to try and finish above on Levy`s thrifty budget. It is time to sell out for as much money as possible, and I don`t care where the money comes from.

There is no other owner who have done better than ENIC except Man City's who have cheated. As I've pointed out many times we have spent almost every penny we are allowed to.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Nothing will change until ENIC pack their bags and fack off, so its pointless getting any hopes up. Levy has appointed 3 good managers (who were able to over achieve with the tools at their disposal) in 20 years, and one of those was BMJ, who was originally a number 2, so he got lucky there. These owners have taken it as far as they can, and after 20 years, us Spurs fans have suffered long enough, it is time for a takeover, it is the only way Spurs will get to the very top. Look at what Spurs are up against, we have media darlings Pool and United dragged up the league by the officials every year and the financial doping at City and Chelsea, that`s 4 clubs we have to try and finish above on Levy`s thrifty budget. It is time to sell out for as much money as possible, and I don`t care where the money comes from.

The issue with ENIC is that the worst mistakes come when they put worries of how the fans will perceive their decisions ahead of anything else

For 15+ years Santini was the best example of this, as it has been widely reported that Frank Arnesen said Martin Jol was the manager we needed...but because we needed a Big Name™ after sacking Hoddle, we brought in Santini to appease the fans (no doubt with half a mind thinking that he'd have taken France deep into Euro 2004, instead of getting knocked out by Greece in the quarter finals) with Jol down the bench

And that's the thing with the ubermensch, and I've been saying it all along, that having sacked Poch the board wanted to tame the leAvEe ouWt mob and the best option to do so would be a Big Name™ and that's what we got - and it has to be said that same mob were demanding we bring in the ubermensch since at least the mauling from Bayern, which does create the uncomfortable scenario that Levy's reading all the replies to the club's tweets - which is how we're in the current situation

Now the obvious question is who else we could have brought in at the time, as any other options would have been prohibitively expensive (i.e. Simeone, Koeman, Nagelsmann, ten Haag), potentially risky (i.e. Sacramento...we're still using this theory, right?), or bore the brunt of the Lunatic Fringe's frustrations for not being a Big Name™ (i.e. Nagelsmann...again, Hasenhuttl) - with the only exception that I can think of being Carlo Ancelotti

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

We desperately need a significant overhaul of the squad and we're nowhere near having enough money to do it quickly. That was the case when we appointed Mourinho and is even more the case now.

Mourinho's the antithesis of what was needed...and it was bleeding apparent from the off. Levy's got so many appointments wrong before, but this one takes the ****ing biscuit.

We need another Pochettino appointment, Someone who will rebuild the club, using what he's got and players we can afford and will develop. Justifying the ticket prices and trying to fill the stadium will be Levy's penance.

 

[remembercolinlee]

Total record of JM

Premier league
P49 W24 D11 L14 pts 83
(pts per game 1.69 which equals 64pt for a season....between 7-11 short of top 4)

CL
P4 W1 D0 L3 F5 A9

EL games
P9 W7 D1 L1

FA Cup
P8 W4 D2 L2
Only played 3 Premier League teams
Lost to 2 of them.

Caribou Cup
P3 W3 D0 L0
Only 1 Premier league clubs played.

Total
P73 W39 D14 L20

If you remove Marine (non league), Stoke, Wycombe, Brentford, Boro, (all Championship clubs) it becomes:

P67 W34 D13 L20

Under JM
We average 10 attempts per game

That's our lowest since records began in 2016/17.

Under Pochettino our highest was 17 attempts per game and in his last season it was 13.5 per game.

 

[Billy The Spur]

There is no other owner who have done better than ENIC except Man City's who have cheated. As I've pointed out many times we have spent almost every penny we are allowed to.

I`m sure they have, but its achieved nothing. That is why it is time for them to disappear and let somebody else have a go.

 

[Spurlock]

Way forward means the next level for me

we are brave owners away from that

need some top class purchases to boost a squad that is flat lining a bit like what Liverpool did when they purchased Allison, Vin Dijk and Fabhino. We’ve had the opportunities but haven’t been brave enough to invest the extra few million to get the big deals over the line. Until the owners are brave enough to think big...we will always be falling just short.

In the last 10 years we have entered 40 club competitions and won 0...that’s so embarrassing

Getting trophies is the next level now not another 5 year project that has some fans at best satisfied with saying ‘we are punching above our weight’

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I`m sure they have, but its achieved nothing. That is why it is time for them to disappear and let somebody else have a go.

The problem is that, unless we also have some financial doping - and common sense dictates we'll be the first club the Premier League sanctions for doing so - the issue is we've lost at least £100m in income in the past year due to both lack of fans in the stadium as well as the numerous cancelled events, which is an obstacle any prospective owner who isn't commonly known as Sheikh would have to overcome

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

If Mourinho wins a trophy - the League Cup or EL or both as he did at Utd he will claim to be a success.

If he does, how will you view it?

His record suggests that he finds a way to win something even when the flaws in his ways are obvious.

Ultimately sport is about what you achieved rather than how you achieved it.

Like George Graham, he’s a pragmatist who won’t be remembered for his style.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

If Mourinho wins a trophy - the League Cup or EL or both as he did at Utd he will claim to be a success.

If he does, how will you view it?

His record suggests that he finds a way to win something even when the flaws in his ways are obvious.

Ultimately sport is about what you achieved rather than how you achieved it.

Like George Graham, he’s a pragmatist who won’t be remembered for his style.

The last 2 Spurs managers to win a trophy were...

Juande Ramos; and

The Bloke in the Coat.

Try and find anyone who has a good word to say about either...

 

[remembercolinlee]

If Mourinho wins a trophy - the League Cup or EL or both as he did at Utd he will claim to be a success.

If he does, how will you view it?

His record suggests that he finds a way to win something even when the flaws in his ways are obvious.

Ultimately sport is about what you achieved rather than how you achieved it.

Like George Graham, he’s a pragmatist who won’t be remembered for his style.

I manage to afford 10 to 15 games a season.
Never boo no matter what.

Went to most of the home games the season Ramos was sacked and the atmosphere was progressively ugly.
Very similar with AVB.

But JM is being saved cos fans ain't at matches.

Either there'd be empty seats or a lot of booing...or both.

I wouldn't pay £60 to watch us have 10 attempts on goal and only 2 or 3 attempts on target week in week out.

 

[The Huddlefro]

If Mourinho wins a trophy - the League Cup or EL or both as he did at Utd he will claim to be a success.

If he does, how will you view it?

His record suggests that he finds a way to win something even when the flaws in his ways are obvious.

Ultimately sport is about what you achieved rather than how you achieved it.

Like George Graham, he’s a pragmatist who won’t be remembered for his style.

I’m going to contradict myself a bit here and say both yes and no.

You could win any knockout competition by scraping 1-0s or penalty wins against Championship opposition. It’s still the same trophy. Is it a good indicator of a team’s quality though? The true test is always the league. But fans want silverware, that’s what we remember. And of course the players want medals.

Will winning a trophy at Spurs make Jose a success? By that metric yes, of course. Frankly the way this season is going, ****housing our way to a dirty 1-0 over City in the final would be incredible and I think we’d all celebrate like mad men because the prospects for us in competitions that are more long term are slim. Winning a trophy is seldom a bad memory though.

When the dust has settled though and we all reflect on a campaign we’d all remember for that at least in part, ultimately Mourinho is taking us backwards. That’s not all his fault as outlined above but he’s not the man to rebuild this squad.

I don’t think Poch was a failure for not winning a trophy with us. Ultimately I think we rose further and faster than we all dreamed, partly thanks to his management, and partly down to the luck of having a star like Kane around at the right time. Poch improved him of course but we wouldn’t have got to where we were if we’d been stuck with Soldado. It was right to move him on when we did and if Jose wins a trophy with us then at least we’ll have one fond lasting memory of his time with us, but it’s going sour fast. I don’t see him turning it around with us now.

So yes an awful lot of sport is what you win and I am willing to sell my Spurs soul for a couple of seasons to get some trophies and have a proper run at the league. That’s not happening though. The league table is what tells a team on a good cup run apart from a genuinely good, consistent team, and we’re clearly not the latter under Jose. I guess what I’m saying is that winning in the league and the cups show different kinds of success - one is a one off game mentality (and often against lower league opposition because it’s the cups) and the other is the true test of consistency against teams that are more your peers. Whether Jose is a ‘success’ at Spurs depends on how you define ‘success’ and I think that’s something we’re all grappling with on this board, to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[Tilly'sowner]

I don't think sacking Jose is the solution. We do not need yet more upheaval.

We should be asking what are the underlying issues that are causing problems?

When we have struck gold and had relatively successful managers who had the team playing fantastic football and being on the cusp of winning cups etc, why have they started spouting off about wanting to join other teams? We had Redknapp talking about wanting to manage England. We had Poch dropping hints about Real Madrid. We even have Jose now saying that one day he would like to manage Portugal.

When you look at the other successful clubs present and recent past, you don't hear their managers expressing a desire to leave to join other clubs or countries. They want to stay and continue. They tend to only leave when they are sacked but they never start spouting off about wanting to leave. A small exception was Pep's uncertainty about extending his contract but that was resolved.

So the question I ask, is what should Spurs be doing to make them look attractive to managers and stop seeing the club as a stepping stone to something else they desire. Spurs need to step up here and show its worth to both future managers and players - match their aspirations.

Levy and Spurs need to move on from the "small club" mentality they have had and start thinking big.

 

[PowerSpurs]

I`m sure they have, but its achieved nothing. That is why it is time for them to disappear and let somebody else have a go.

I would be happy with that if you could show me a single example of another owner doing better in any of the top leagues. So you need to find a mid table club who has qualified for the CL more than four times AND won a trophy. I really fear that someone else will be much worse.

 

[PowerSpurs]

I don't think sacking Jose is the solution. We do not need yet more upheaval.

We should be asking what are the underlying issues that are causing problems?

When we have struck gold and had relatively successful managers who had the team playing fantastic football and being on the cusp of winning cups etc, why have they started spouting off about wanting to join other teams? We had Redknapp talking about wanting to manage England. We had Poch dropping hints about Real Madrid. We even have Jose now saying that one day he would like to manage Portugal.

When you look at the other successful clubs present and recent past, you don't hear their managers expressing a desire to leave to join other clubs or countries. They want to stay and continue. They tend to only leave when they are sacked but they never start spouting off about wanting to leave. A small exception was Pep's uncertainty about extending his contract but that was resolved.

So the question I ask, is what should Spurs be doing to make them look attractive to managers and stop seeing the club as a stepping stone to something else they desire. Spurs need to step up here and show its worth to both future managers and players - match their aspirations.

Levy and Spurs need to move on from the "small club" mentality they have had and start thinking big.

ENIC are the only owner we've ever had who have been serious about making us the biggest club in the world. Everyone else was happy with the occasional cup run and mediocrity in the League.

 

[The Huddlefro]

I don't think sacking Jose is the solution. We do not need yet more upheaval.

We should be asking what are the underlying issues that are causing problems?

When we have struck gold and had relatively successful managers who had the team playing fantastic football and being on the cusp of winning cups etc, why have they started spouting off about wanting to join other teams? We had Redknapp talking about wanting to manage England. We had Poch dropping hints about Real Madrid. We even have Jose now saying that one day he would like to manage Portugal.

When you look at the other successful clubs present and recent past, you don't hear their managers expressing a desire to leave to join other clubs or countries. They want to stay and continue. They tend to only leave when they are sacked but they never start spouting off about wanting to leave. A small exception was Pep's uncertainty about extending his contract but that was resolved.

So the question I ask, is what should Spurs be doing to make them look attractive to managers and stop seeing the club as a stepping stone to something else they desire. Spurs need to step up here and show its worth to both future managers and players - match their aspirations.

Levy and Spurs need to move on from the "small club" mentality they have had and start thinking big.

So what does that mean? Big clubs have philosophies and projects, we had that under Poch, as well as a few years of brilliant football. Big clubs employ the top managers, we have one of the most successful of this century at the club right now and it’s plainly not working.

I’m not trying to attack your post btw, I know you’re asking for answers as to how that gap is bridged. The closest I can come is if we’d spent wisely during the transfer windows under Poch where we did nothing, but even then he wasn’t perfect and it was his own flaws that were his downfall as much as the lack of investment.

I don’t think Levy has a small club mentality, I think he is tremendously ambitious for Spurs. I think he’s sometimes too stubborn and has made a fair few bad calls when it comes to who he employs to fulfil that vision for our club though.

No matter what, step 1 has to be a complete rebuild of the footballing staff from Levy down, there seems to be a lot wrong away from the commercial side of the club. Once that’s in place then a proper rebuild of the squad can take place under a manager who buys Levy’s vision and hopefully will evolve and grow in a way that Poch didn’t. But I’m not sure that rebuild will happen and I’m not sure that manager exists.