The way forward

[humanbeingincroydon]

You make a solid point. I think it boils down to what is almost the hardest thing in football which is how to move into phase 2 of a strong first cycle. So many examples of teams flopping badly in this regard: Leicester after their title win (although they now seem to be back on track), Arsenal managed it once but then failed to build on the Invincibles side, Liverpool are finding out how hard this is, Everton badly lost their way after Moyes left. Perhaps the best example of failing to move smoothly from a strong first cycle into a second cycle is Chelsea, who since Conte left have gone through 3 managers and untold cash to basically go nowhere.

Poch so obviously struggled in this regard. His new recruits were disasters and he became more and more unhealthily attached to members of his 'old guard' who had served him so well in the first cycle but couldn't be relied on to move to phase 2.

SAF was peerless in this regard. And it is for this reason I argue that if Pep wins the CL (the league is a given at this point) having moved from the 2018/19 cycle to a new phase that doesn't include former talismen like Kompany, Silva, Fernandinho and Aguero, he thoroughly deserves the accolade of the best manager of the recent era (i.e. since Fergie).

Funnily enough, in ranking managers who are good at moving from a strong first cycle to an equal or better second phase, I would place Mourinho near if not at the bottom of the list.

I think this is totally unfair

He's usually been sacked before Phase I has finished

 

[Dier Hard]

You make a solid point. I think it boils down to what is almost the hardest thing in football which is how to move into phase 2 of a strong first cycle. So many examples of teams flopping badly in this regard: Leicester after their title win (although they now seem to be back on track), Arsenal managed it once but then failed to build on the Invincibles side, Liverpool are finding out how hard this is, Everton badly lost their way after Moyes left. Perhaps the best example of failing to move smoothly from a strong first cycle into a second cycle is Chelsea, who since Conte left have gone through 3 managers and untold cash to basically go nowhere.

Poch so obviously struggled in this regard. His new recruits were disasters and he became more and more unhealthily attached to members of his 'old guard' who had served him so well in the first cycle but couldn't be relied on to move to phase 2.

SAF was peerless in this regard. And it is for this reason I argue that if Pep wins the CL (the league is a given at this point) having moved from the 2018/19 cycle to a new phase that doesn't include former talismen like Kompany, Silva, Fernandinho and Aguero, he thoroughly deserves the accolade of the best manager of the recent era (i.e. since Fergie).

Funnily enough, in ranking managers who are good at moving from a strong first cycle to an equal or better second phase, I would place Mourinho near if not at the bottom of the list.

SAF was just a different breed of manager. Truly exceptional at his job. It wasn’t just players he was able to replace, he done so with his staff. The latter is probably what allowed to remain at the top for so long, often bringing in fresh ideas around the place and not being left behind.

Pep’s brand of football is amazing but I think he has it easier than most to refresh the ranks at City. Even when he gets it wrong he just spends another £50m the following summer to rectify it. Also has to be said that all those talisman you listed were there before Pep joined too.

There likely aren’t too many managers who are good at rebuilding their own team if truth be told, for pretty much what you said about Poch with regards to being too attached to those who’d served the club so well. A fresh face is generally able to be a lot clearer in what they want as they won’t have any sentiment and aren’t afraid of upsetting the applecart. Ironically, the best person to have replaced Poch would’ve probably been the Poch of 2014/15.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

SAF was just a different breed of manager. Truly exceptional at his job. It wasn’t just players he was able to replace, he done so with his staff. The latter is probably what allowed to remain at the top for so long, often bringing in fresh ideas around the place and not being left behind.

Pep’s brand of football is amazing but I think he has it easier than most to refresh the ranks at City. Even when he gets it wrong he just spends another £50m the following summer to rectify it. Also has to be said that all those talisman you listed were there before Pep joined too.

There likely aren’t too many managers who are good at rebuilding their own team if truth be told, for pretty much what you said about Poch with regards to being too attached to those who’d served the club so well. A fresh face is generally able to be a lot clearer in what they want as they won’t have any sentiment and aren’t afraid of upsetting the applecart. Ironically, the best person to have replaced Poch would’ve probably been the Poch of 2014/15.

Guardiola's also had the benefit of managing clubs that play the long game and think ahead of whoever their current manager is.
Barca lost sight of that and are now suffering because of it.

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

SAF was just a different breed of manager. Truly exceptional at his job. It wasn’t just players he was able to replace, he done so with his staff. The latter is probably what allowed to remain at the top for so long, often bringing in fresh ideas around the place and not being left behind.

Pep’s brand of football is amazing but I think he has it easier than most to refresh the ranks at City. Even when he gets it wrong he just spends another £50m the following summer to rectify it. Also has to be said that all those talisman you listed were there before Pep joined too.

There likely aren’t too many managers who are good at rebuilding their own team if truth be told, for pretty much what you said about Poch with regards to being too attached to those who’d served the club so well. A fresh face is generally able to be a lot clearer in what they want as they won’t have any sentiment and aren’t afraid of upsetting the applecart. Ironically, the best person to have replaced Poch would’ve probably been the Poch of 2014/15.

With all the best managers, man management was the key.
SAF irritated all you opposition fans, but he backed his players 100%. Even when he shouldn’t.
Mourinho used to do this - although not to the same extent perhaps.
Now he hangs them out to dry, letting his obvious frustrations take over. That’s because at both Utd and Spurs he can’t handle not being the front runner and having to build from a position of being just below that level required to win the top trophies.
The best don’t sulk when they can’t win, they fight back and come out on top again.

 

[remembercolinlee]

With all the best managers, man management was the key.
SAF irritated all you opposition fans, but he backed his players 100%. Even when he shouldn’t.
Mourinho used to do this - although not to the same extent perhaps.
Now he hangs them out to dry, letting his obvious frustrations take over. That’s because at both Utd and Spurs he can’t handle not being the front runner and having to build from a position of being just below that level required to win the top trophies.
The best don’t sulk when they can’t win, they fight back and come out on top again.

Over and over again SAF proved he could be brutal and dump a player who crossed him...Kanchelski, RVN, Beckham, Sharpe, Stam, Yorke, Keane and the keeper in the 91 Cup final yet he would back them in public no matter what they did on the pitch.

Players respect send respond to that ... even Players he ditched speak well of him apart from Keane.

 

[The RDBD]

So based on recent years, you have two choices for your manager
in terms of supporter enjoyment and the desires of ENIC :

1. relatively hands-off, let the squad play to their strengths, the best
formation will come out in the wash etc

2. not yet proven at the level Spurs have reached / wish to reach,
but has a "philosophy" about how their teams should play


Who are subsequently on your short lists for replacing Jose ??

 

[remembercolinlee]

So based on recent years, you have two choices for your manager
in terms of supporter enjoyment and the desires of ENIC :

1. relatively hands-off, let the squad play to their strengths, the best
formation will come out in the wash etc

2. not yet proven at the level Spurs have reached / wish to reach,
but has a "philosophy" about how their teams should play


Who are subsequently on your short lists for replacing Jose ??

Not being funny but who's the question to?

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I've noticed a Narrative growing in the last couple of days about how the club are briefing the media so that fans aren't caught off guard when the axe falls

There's certainly been a lot of articles touching on similar talking points in recent days from the likes of Dan Kilpatrick at the Standard and Matt Law in the Torygraph, most obviously the way he was outright called a liar about his explanation for Toby not being available on Sunday, and it's notable that Alasdair Gold has done a 180 and started putting the boot in since the start of the week too

It's one thing if talkBALLS were pushing these out to get clicks, but since Kilpatrick and Gold have an in with the club, while Law is well-respected, the timing of it does seem to be more than a little convenient

 

[The RDBD]

Not being funny but who's the question to?

ALL OF YOU.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

I've noticed a Narrative growing in the last couple of days about how the club are briefing the media so that fans aren't caught off guard when the axe falls

There's certainly been a lot of articles touching on similar talking points in recent days from the likes of Dan Kilpatrick at the Standard and Matt Law in the Torygraph, most obviously the way he was outright called a liar about his explanation for Toby not being available on Sunday, and it's notable that Alasdair Gold has done a 180 and started putting the boot in since the start of the week too

It's one thing if talkBALLS were pushing these out to get clicks, but since Kilpatrick and Gold have an in with the club, while Law is well-respected, the timing of it does seem to be more than a little convenient

He's gone...the only thing is getting someone in to replace him. Ideally, Levy'd want to leave it to the summer but Mourinho's starting to lash out and he mustn't be left to damage things further. I reckon there's still a strong likelihood that he won't make it to the LC Final.

 

[remembercolinlee]

ALL OF YOU.

No need to shout mate, I'm a dumbass not deaf

The reason I asked is cos I have said that I ain't sure cos I do not tend to follow European football. I do think the club must have a short list as to not have one would be negligent beyond belief.

The Leeds manager seems very similar to Pochettino in terms of having one way of playing (no plan B),only using the same few players and playing a high intensity game that can lead to burn out.
On the other hand his style of football is excellent.
Ditto with the Brighton manager.

No one else in the prem appeals (Guardiola and Klopp ain't coming) and like I said I know nothing about overseas managers.

 

[Dier Hard]

So based on recent years, you have two choices for your manager
in terms of supporter enjoyment and the desires of ENIC :

1. relatively hands-off, let the squad play to their strengths, the best
formation will come out in the wash etc

2. not yet proven at the level Spurs have reached / wish to reach,
but has a "philosophy" about how their teams should play


Who are subsequently on your short lists for replacing Jose ??

Nagelsmann or Potter for me.

Nagelsmann is the hot prospect of management in Europe at the moment whilst I think Potter is quite similar to how we hired Poch, the young manager in the Prem who plays an impressive brand of football who is probably deserving of a chance to manage a bigger club.

Marco Rose was also on my list but he’s agreed to take over Dortmund at the end of the season.

I’d also happily take Allegri if he ever wants to get back into work. He was who I initially wanted when Poch was sacked.

 

[remembercolinlee]

He's gone...the only thing is getting someone in to replace him. Ideally, Levy'd want to leave it to the summer but Mourinho's starting to lash out and he mustn't be left to damage things further. I reckon there's still a strong likelihood that he won't make it to the LC Final.

I wish I could agree cos a new manager needs time with the squad before the window opens and to get his ideas across because he'll lose all the squad in the summer due to the Euros.
The time to get rid of was after that losing run before we beat Fulham, Palace and Burnley or after the NLD and EL debacles.
But as that didn't happen I think we are stuck with the turgid football for 9 more games ... at least!

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

I wish I could agree cos a new manager needs time with the squad before the window opens and to get his ideas across because he'll lose all the squad in the summer due to the Euros.
The time to get rid of was after that losing run before we beat Fulham, Palace and Burnley or after the NLD and EL debacles.
But as that didn't happen I think we are stuck with the turgid football for 9 more games ... at least!

For me, he shouldn't have made it beyond the loss at Brighton. That performance was criminal and he was never going to turn it around. He never does.

He's just such a divisive, damaging presence when it starts to go wrong. There's nothing that he won't say or do to prove that it isn't his fault...and that will damage the club beyond his departure. I've no idea what sponsors make of him acting like the world's biggest dickhead?

I'm fully prepared for a loss to City, possibly a big one...but I'd rather our manager wasn't telling anyone who'll listen, how bad the players are and what he won when he was employed elsewhere.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Nagelsmann or Potter for me.

Nagelsmann is the hot prospect of management in Europe at the moment whilst I think Potter is quite similar to how we hired Poch, the young manager in the Prem who plays an impressive brand of football who is probably deserving of a chance to manage a bigger club.

Marco Rose was also on my list but he’s agreed to take over Dortmund at the end of the season.

I’d also happily take Allegri if he ever wants to get back into work. He was who I initially wanted when Poch was sacked.

We need someone who doesn't want to take short term decisions and will be willing to commit to the club for a good few years. The squad needs significant rebuilding. Potter or Nagelsmann look like the right sort of appointment and they play attacking football.

I fear that Allegri will want to hang on to players whose time is done, in the hope that he can wring something out of them by way of a cup win...basically another Mourinho appointment.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

No need to shout mate, I'm a dumbass not deaf

The reason I asked is cos I have said that I ain't sure cos I do not tend to follow European football. I do think the club must have a short list as to not have one would be negligent beyond belief.

The Leeds manager seems very similar to Pochettino in terms of having one way of playing (no plan B),only using the same few players and playing a high intensity game that can lead to burn out.
On the other hand his style of football is excellent.
Ditto with the Brighton manager.

No one else in the prem appeals (Guardiola and Klopp ain't coming) and like I said I know nothing about overseas managers.

Bielsa was Poch's mentor which is why there's similarities in how their sides play, having signed Poch for both Newell's Old Boys and Espanyol as well as picked him for the Argentina national team

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

No need to shout mate, I'm a dumbass not deaf

The reason I asked is cos I have said that I ain't sure cos I do not tend to follow European football. I do think the club must have a short list as to not have one would be negligent beyond belief.

The Leeds manager seems very similar to Pochettino in terms of having one way of playing (no plan B),only using the same few players and playing a high intensity game that can lead to burn out.
On the other hand his style of football is excellent.
Ditto with the Brighton manager.

No one else in the prem appeals (Guardiola and Klopp ain't coming) and like I said I know nothing about overseas managers.

I've banged on about Bielsa for ages, but I think he's at the right club and he should stay there.
Leeds have the potential to progress and forge an identity under him that a younger man can come in and follow.
Keeping them up and pushing on from there is great for him and them.

El Loco would go batshit at the Lane and storm out within a week.
His style would collapse the squad, too. We've played about 50% more games than them this season and it wouldn't work.
Pochettino tried something similar with us for a while and then had to change it.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

He's gone...the only thing is getting someone in to replace him. Ideally, Levy'd want to leave it to the summer but Mourinho's starting to lash out and he mustn't be left to damage things further. I reckon there's still a strong likelihood that he won't make it to the LC Final.

If I were a betting man, the scenarios work out like this

Lose the final and he's gone PDQ, likely with Ledders (or maybe Sacramento, if that theory is still a thing) in place for the run-in
Win the final and he gets a stay of execution until the end of the season, but the axe is going to fall regardless

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Nagelsmann or Potter for me.

Nagelsmann is the hot prospect of management in Europe at the moment whilst I think Potter is quite similar to how we hired Poch, the young manager in the Prem who plays an impressive brand of football who is probably deserving of a chance to manage a bigger club.

Marco Rose was also on my list but he’s agreed to take over Dortmund at the end of the season.

I’d also happily take Allegri if he ever wants to get back into work. He was who I initially wanted when Poch was sacked.

I have to admire your love of Potter. Brighton certainly don't get the plaudits they deserve but he hasn't really taken them forwards significantly since Hughton left. They are tough to beat at the same time as being easy on the eye, which is a rarity nowadays but...if Levy sacks Jose and appoints someone with the profile of Graham Potter I can see an uprising both from fans and from players. No disrespect meant...he's a young coach with decades ahead of him, but simply not big enough for a club our size.

Max Allegri worries me. Had it easy at Juve and two full seasons out of the game is a concern. So much has changed due to the pandemic and I wouldn't trust a manager who hadn't experienced the past 2 seasons firsthand to take us forward. Also there are growing rumours in Italy that he's either returning to Juve or taking over at Roma next season.

Nagelsmann is the obvious choice but so many clubs could be chasing his signature. Barca being top of that list. Our stadium and facilities/appreciation for young talent might just push a deal over the line, as will the news that Levy is available every morning in the cafeteria for a coffee and croissant. Just ask for 'Daniel'.

It's a really tough one. From within the PL, my choice would be Nuno Santo. I think he has taken Wolves as far as he can and they have been desperately unlucky this season with Jimenez' injury, as well as losing Jota to Liverpool in the summer. If appointing him could guarantee any 3 of Jimenez, Pedro Neto, Conor Coady and Ruben Neves coming with, I'd take him in a heartbeat. There is a lot to be said about appointing PL-proven managers and signing PL-proven players. We could even arrange for Doherty to pick him up at Molineux and switch drivers the second Santo gets in the car.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

SAF irritated all you opposition fans, but he backed his players 100%. Even when he shouldn’t.

I never cared about him doing this, nor with Wenger's failure to see anything.
I found both of them to be extremely hypocritical when it came to media scrutiny of decisions and their treatment of match officials, though.
They were bullies and used the power and size of their clubs to avoid being called out on it.

Ferguson refusing to go on the BBC and banning journalists for asking questions he didn't like should've seen the media slaughter him.
They should've pulled Man Utd from MOTD and refused to cover them at all.
It was allowed to continue for years without a mention.