The var thread

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----HistoryRepeating---- said:
Totally understand what you are saying, but, MA did first reach for a yellow, before changing his mind to a red, then subsequently sending the lad off. And now a few days later we have the red card rescinded. Due to the horrific nature of the injury they was a break in play, var could have slipped in unnoticed and got this right.....after all it checks every red card anyway. Watch Son's tackle again, and ask yourself was it a sending off. No matter the emotion of the situation, he should have got this right.
VAR......what is it good for................
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Not subjective decisions like this red card.

Also I dont think VAR works like you are imagining. It has a look for offsides etc as well for every goal. But not every goal takes 10 years. It's only when they see that there might be an issue that they do a full check with 100 replays and discussion with the ref which is what takes the time.

Rather than thinking of what we would do with hindsight. Put yourself in the refs shoes and also think about what would happen in similar situations.

The ref sees the incident and decides it's a yellow but then sees the damage it has caused. Would VAR intervene by itself here? No. Firstly it's a yellow and they don't automatically do full checks on a yellow the ref has seen. The ref could have asked for clarification on something he wasnt sure about. But maybe having seen the damage he didn't think that it possibly could have been a second collision that caused it so didn't ask. This part is all human.

Then he changes his mind and shows a red. Var could then start a check although the ref has again seen the tackle and this check would take time In addition to all that was wasted already. And would the human VAR ref really want to delay the game on his first look seeing the injury it caused when the ref saw the tackle?

The VAR ref is as human and could just as well be affected by the emotion of the situation as the normal ref. In fact in other situations the on field ref might get the decision right but the VAR ref decide that it was red card worthy. No reason to think that the VAR ref is any less prone to weird decisions.
We're seeing these decisions people are calling incorrect now that the threshold has been lowered.

At the end of the day you have to think of a clear set of rules on when VAR will be triggered that applies to all matches and incidents. It's not black and white and much more difficult than people are making out. Even if you just go by this one incident.

Aa I said, I would rather it was kept to offside and things that were missed this season and work on speeding up the checks, communication and things like that, then slowly use it for more from there.
 
Another 3 minutes at Spurs today to decide that a toenail was offside.





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VocalMinority said:
Good call. Offside by a toe or a yard is all the same. Its offside and spurs would have been robbed if it stood.
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It's not what it was brought in for though, and surely you're not happy with it taking as long as it did?

The problem with this whole calling of offside as a fact, whether it's 1mm or metre, is there's a margin of error involved. So it's not an actual fact when it's that tight is it? There's still a bit of guesswork and therefore room for bias involved.
 
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Libby said:
It's not what it was brought in for though, and surely you're not happy with it taking as long as it did?

The problem with this whole calling of offside as a fact, whether it's 1mm or metre, is there's a margin of error involved. So it's not an actual fact when it's that tight is it? There's still a bit of guesswork and therefore room for bias involved.
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When they tested with points they premeasured the margin of error was actually 1mm. So this was outside the margin of error still. computers are very good at drawing lines as long as they have good reference points. Its all Maths. We've sent a probe 3 billion miles to pluto with a line accurate enough to have it fly past at 30000mph and pre-program spin accurately enough to keep Pluto in frame of the camera while doing it.

Also how is enforcing the rules not what it was brought in for?

I would like it to be quicker for sure. that will happen with use. but i would mostly like it to be correct, not have spurs lose a point from a clear and obvious wrong decision.
 
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VocalMinority said:
When they tested with points they premeasured the margin of error was actually 1mm. So this was outside the margin of error still. computers are very good at drawing lines as long as they have good reference points. Its all Maths. We've sent a probe 3 billion miles to pluto with a line accurate enough to have it fly past at 30000mph and pre-program spin accurately enough to keep Pluto in frame of the camera while doing it.

Also how is enforcing the rules not what it was brought in for?

I would like it to be quicker for sure. that will happen with use. but i would mostly like it to be correct, not have spurs lose a point from a clear and obvious wrong decision.
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Where have you seen the 1mm margin of error? Everywhere I've seen it mentioned has it far higher than that. It's all dependant on where the lines are drawn and what frame of the passing player striking the ball is used. I can't believe for a second that's accurate to the millimetre

I just don't see how these sorts of incidents will get much quicker, people have been saying that for well over 100 matches. And yes, I'd rather the goal be given than wait over 3 minutes for a decision.

And it's not what it's brought in for as it was supposedly brought in to correct howlers and to make sure teams weren't ****ed over by obviously wrong decisions. Not spend minutes analysing the closest of decisions that wouldn't have even got a second look previously.
 
Libby said:
Where have you seen the 1mm margin of error? Everywhere I've seen it mentioned has it far higher than that. It's all dependant on where the lines are drawn and what frame of the passing player striking the ball is used. I can't believe for a second that's accurate to the millimetre

I just don't see how these sorts of incidents will get much quicker, people have been saying that for well over 100 matches. And yes, I'd rather the goal be given than wait over 3 minutes for a decision.

And it's not what it's brought in for as it was supposedly brought in to correct howlers and to make sure teams weren't ****ed over by obviously wrong decisions. Not spend minutes analysing the closest of decisions that wouldn't have even got a second look previously.
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There are various places about how they tested it. for example on the FIFA website:
https://football-technology.fifa.com/en/blog/the-challenge-of-offside-for-var/

Why cant you believe it can be MM accurate? We can measure atoms in laboratory conditions. This is nowhere near the limit of modern technology. Only limit is the amount of investment we're willing to give it. As i said, computers are very very good at drawing lines as its all maths and trigonometry. When you think of video games, computers are doing this sort of calculation 100's of times a second.
Its also good at detecting speed. Weve had speed cameras for decades. I dont know if this is how this part is done but i would do it so the moment the ball stops accelerating frame to frame is the point at which it has left the foot. All of these calculations can be done in under a second. The hard part would actually be telling which parts belong to the player, something humans can do easily.

Biggest limitation is going to be the quality of the camera. But i believe premier league cameras are good enough for MM accuracy. This is still a clear and obvious mistake when looked at through technology.
 
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VocalMinority said:
When they tested with points they premeasured the margin of error was actually 1mm. So this was outside the margin of error still. computers are very good at drawing lines as long as they have good reference points. Its all Maths. We've sent a probe 3 billion miles to pluto with a line accurate enough to have it fly past at 30000mph and pre-program spin accurately enough to keep Pluto in frame of the camera while doing it.

Also how is enforcing the rules not what it was brought in for?

I would like it to be quicker for sure. that will happen with use. but i would mostly like it to be correct, not have spurs lose a point from a clear and obvious wrong decision.
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If it's good enough for Mickey Mouse's dog, it's good enough for me.
 
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VocalMinority said:
There are various places about how they tested it. for example on the FIFA website:
https://football-technology.fifa.com/en/blog/the-challenge-of-offside-for-var/

Why cant you believe it can be MM accurate? We can measure atoms in laboratory conditions. This is nowhere near the limit of modern technology. Only limit is the amount of investment we're willing to give it. As i said, computers are very very good at drawing lines as its all maths and trigonometry. When you think of video games, computers are doing this sort of calculation 100's of times a second.
Its also good at detecting speed. Weve had speed cameras for decades. I dont know if this is how this part is done but i would do it so the moment the ball stops accelerating frame to frame is the point at which it has left the foot. All of these calculations can be done in under a second. The hard part would actually be telling which parts belong to the player, something humans can do easily.

Biggest limitation is going to be the quality of the camera. But i believe premier league cameras are good enough for MM accuracy. This is still a clear and obvious mistake when looked at through technology.
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That link says nothing about a 1mm margin of error, or any margin of error at all as far as I can see. Haven't got time for the video atm.

I should clarify I'm not saying that I don't think it would be possible, I'm saying I don't believe it's that accurate at present. There's too many variables - and I agree that the quality of the camera is probably one of the biggest limitations.
 
Swarbrick gives it a 7/10 so far apparently.


Doesn't look we'll be getting a time limit either.
 
It's Only A Game said:
They talk about VAR as if it's some kind of machine far removed from any human input, but the failings are down to human interpretation of what is on the screen. It's no different to what we had before VAR only slower.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50423973
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It's still one person's opinion at the end of the day, and they're still making it up as they go along as I far as I can see.

Like you say it's no different really except the game has been slowed down and the life and fun of it sucked out.

Roll on relegation, whenever it comes.
 
Libby said:
It's still one person's opinion at the end of the day, and they're still making it up as they go along as I far as I can see.

Like you say it's no different really except the game has been slowed down and the life and fun of it sucked out.

Roll on relegation, whenever it comes.
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About 6 months time <cheers>
 
I tried to copy a video over, but it wouldn’t stick.
It was VAR confirming that a substitute, of the defending team, warming up behind the goal line had
kicked the ball back before it had actually gone out of play.
The ball was inches from crossing the line, no attacking player was close to, or even attempting, to keep the ball in play and there was no advantage to be gained by stopping the ball from going out for a goal kick, to the sub’s team.
The referee’s decision was to book the player AND award a penalty to the attacking side, that was duly scored.
I wasn’t aware that the ref could award a penalty in this type of situation. Maybe an uncontested drop ball to the attacking team?
 
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