The Twentieth Century

[bayernkenny]

This is my first attempt at creating what I hope is a 'thread' of interest to my fellow contributors. On my travels I picked up a small volume which divides the twentieth century into nine ages; up to 1919 then the remaining eight decades. Each chapter seeks to discuss the star horses of their 'decade' and some overall facets of horseracing during each period.
My point of the thread is that the book claims the 'best' decade was the seventies and is titled 'A surfeit of excellence'. It supports the contention with early mentions of Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Nijinsky, Allez France, Dahlia and Secretariat.
Whether in agreement or not I hope this provokes an interesting discussion.

 

[Cyclonic]

All the best with the thread Kenny. With so many great horses from the past and no real way of getting an easy way to offer up a reasonable response, I'll just put Ribot at the top of the 50s and drop in the names of Crepello, Never Say Die, Tulya, Arctic Prince, Nashua, Swaps, Tulloch and Forego etc.

 

[Ron]

The graph at the foot of this thread is interesting. I'll try to analyse it later

 

[Ron]

Here we are. The decade is the decade in which the horses were 3yos. Includes all horses rated 135 or higher

If we take horses rated 138 or higher then it looks like the 50's and 90's have it

If we take 140 and higher then it's pretty even with a maximum of 2 per decade. Adding the 2 top rated together just gives the 40's the edge


20th Century Timeform Ratings by Decade

Decade

40's

144 Tudor Minstrel

142 Abernant

138 Alycidon

136 Black Tarquin

136 My Babu

135 Coronation

135 Chanteur

135 Tenerani

135 The Bug

135 Souverain

135 Arbar

50's

142 Windy City

142 Ribot

139 Pappa Fourway

138 Star of India

138 Tulloch

137 Princely Gift

137 Never Say Die

137 Pinza

137 Right Boy

136 Herbager

136 Alcide

136 Ballymoss

136 Hafiz

136 Tantieme

136 Texana

136 Crepello

135 Arctic Prince

135 Supreme Court

135 Sicambre


60's

145 Sea Bird

140 Vaguely Noble

138 Exbury

137 Ragusa

137 Reliance

137 Molvedo

136 Floribunda

136 Relko

135 Petingo

135 La Tendresse

135 Match II

135 Right Royal

135 Charlottesville

135 Sir Ivor

70's

144 Brigadier Gerard

141 Mill Reef

138 Nijinsky

138 Alleged

137 Grundy

137 Rheingold

137 Kingston Town

137 Apalachee

137 Troy

136 Allez France

136 Bustino

136 Manikato

136 Thatch

135 Dahlia

135 Youth

135 The Minstrel

135 Sassafras

135 Le Moss

135 Kris

80's

140 Dancing Brave

140 Shergar

139 Reference Point

137 Moorestyle

137 Zilzal

137 Sunday Silence

137 Easy Goer

136 Warning

136 Slip Anchor

136 Bering

136 Old Vic

136 Northjet

136 El Gran Senor

136 Habibti

135 Trempolino

135 Known Fact

135 Nashwan

135 Never So Bold

135 Teenoso

135 Shareef Dancer

135 Sagace

135 Shahrastani

135 Petoski

135 Shadeed

135 Pebbles

135 All Along

90's

140 Dubai Millennium

139 Generous

138 Celtic Swing

138 Daylami

138 Cigar

137 Peintre Celebre

137 Mark of Esteem

137 Dayjur

137 Montjeu

136 Gentlemen

136 Helissio

136 El Condor Pasa

136 Suave Dancer

135 Arazi

135 St Jovite

135 Intikhab

135 Royal Anthem

 

[SwanHills]

..........and Sea Bird II tops the lot!

 

[Ron]

Yep. That's a bit silly isn't it

 

[bayernkenny]

..........and Sea Bird II tops the lot!

You will be pleased to hear that the author agrees with you in that Sea Bird 11 was the finest winner we have seen in the Derby and the Arc; at least until 2000 when the volume was first published.

"There were equally exhilerating performances on the flat: the French trained Sea Bird 11 cruised home in effortless style in both the 1965 Derby and the Arc de Triomphe."

The book is in English, German and French and I seem to recall making the purchase at the gift shop at 'Munchen Riem'.

 

[SwanHills]

Yep. That's a bit silly isn't it

Certainly isn't. You can analyse as much as you like, but this was a truly great racehorse. The way he won The Derby in 1965 had to be seen to be believed. Cantered in on a tight rein. Won the Arc the same year by several lengths despite hanging badly left in the closing stages. Beat the best Arc field seen in years. A great champion. Am proud owner of six framed lithographs (50cm x 39cm) of some great champions (only 850 sets issued by Blenheim Fine Arts in June 1979, to commemorate the 200th running of The Derby). Sea-Bird II is included. Magnificent looking chestnut, rippling with muscle. Original painting by Roy Miller.

What I do find 'silly' is Tudor Minstrel at 144? What in hell did he do to deserve that rating? Blew-up at Tattenham Corner in his Derby. Well, OK, he won 8 top races out of 10, but '144'? Never could understand that rating.

 

[Cyclonic]

I wish I knew more about the decades in which Man o' War ran. He'd qualify for two decades I suppose, so maybe there is a case to be built for either of those spans. Having a horse of his abilities would give a decade a nice leg up I'd imagine.

 

[Bustino74]

I would find it very difficult to argue with Gordon Richards, not least because he's dead, but he always said Tudor Minstrel was the finest. Bit hard to judge him on his Derby run as it was a different world then and the Derby was the race for the 2000G winner. We don't see things that way now.

 

[Ron]

Knocking a sprinter/miler for not winning the Derby is a bit harsh. For all we know Frankel might not have won a Derby

 

[bayernkenny]

Thanks for Timeform ratings list Ron. My 'live' highlight would be 1999 when I was fortunately at Chantilly to see Montjeu win the Prix du Jockey Club and again in Paris for his victory in the Arc. Looking down the straight it seemed impossible that he would catch El Condor Pasa however he succeeded. The next year Montjeu played with Fantastic Light in the King George.

The only drawback was prior to the earliest of the above victories I held a substantial ante post voucher on Montjeu in the Epsom Derby. Fortunately I have wiped the stake and odds from my ageing memory!

 

[Ron]

Derby." It was a superlative performance, which would be etched in the minds of racegoers forever. Sea Bird had beaten the best English and Irish horses, such as Meadow Court (Who went on to win the Irish Derby and the King George), Are I Say, Niksar, Convamore, Cambridge,Gulf Pearl, Bally marais, Solstice, Alcade, Silly Season and Foothill." .... "such as Meadow Court" FFS

Arc. "That year the strongest field ever contested the Prix del'Arc de Triomphe. It included Meadow Court, winner of the Irish Derby and King George VI Diamond Stakes...." I don't think so. "Pat Glennon urged Sea Bird and like a rocket propelling into the air drew away to win by the widest ever margin in the Arc-6 lengths." Oh no it wasn't. Photographic evidence shows conclusively that Ribot has that honour.

Sea Bird was one of the greatest, no doubting that. But some of the claims are laughable, not to mention untrue.

The ratings are very interesting as, until Frankel came along, Dancing Brave was the highest rated ever. Comparing horses across eras must be a nightmare for the handicappers and form analysts alike. At the end of the day we all have our favorites.

Was Frankel better than Sea Bird ???????????????? I don't know.

I have a picture of Red Rum, Arkle and Dessie on our Dining Room wall. If I were to have one of 3 flat horses I'm not sure which 3 I would have. Maybe I would have 4.

Ribot
Sea Bird
Dubai Millennium
Frankel

 

[Bustino74]

1965 was a magic year. Arkle, Sea Bird, Graham Pollock, Provoke, The Who, The Byrds and Bob Dylan's two greatest albums. We should be celebrating 1965

 

[SwanHills]

Don't agree with you on a few points, Ron, I leave it at that. Christ, you'd think it was me who gave Sea-Bird II the ****ing rating, wasn't my bloody fault . Wonderful racehorse. Had he managed to keep a straight line in his Arc, the winning distance would have been a bit further. Hell of a field he beat though. Ribot was brilliant but one nasty son-of-a-bitch. Frankel was the greatest IMHO. Trying to refresh the old memory on Tudor Minstrel, was just a young kid at the time. Remember the extreme disappointment in my old dad's pub when he lost the Derby, no one could believe it, everyone thought he was unbeatable. So, I guess he did deserve this very high rating, from what he had achieved up to Epsom?

SwanHills will now eat the forum's special pie before turning-in......................

 

[Ron]

Cheers Swanny. I've not had a good day but that cheered me up, chuckling to myself

 

[SwanHills]

Me neither, Ron, lousy actually. I've been out of order. Tidied it up a bit.......

 

[QuarterMoonII]

My suspicion is that there are not many that are going to be making much of a case for the years before World War II, as I am sure that the only person that remembers those days is Ron!

The first thing that springs to mind is the old chestnut about comparing horses from different eras. All those Timeform ratings may be good or just a valid starting point for debate, but surely what Mark Twain said holds true: “It were not best that we should all think alike; it is difference of opinion that makes horse-races.”

Should we be quantifying the “best” decade as the one that produced the highest number of very highly regarded horses or should we be looking for the decade that produced the most top class competition?

Would the great clash in 1971 when Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and My Swallow met in the 2000 Guineas at Newmarket not score more points because of the quality of the race even though My Swallow was rated less than 135 by Timeform? What about the 1986 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe when Dancing Brave trounced three horses rated 135 or more? As the ratings do not take into account the race distances surely we should be looking for the decade that featured most of the great contests? Nobody can forget the 1975 King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes, still considered by many to be the Race of the Century, but Grundy and Bustino effectively finished their careers that day and the ratings say that neither of them would have given Mill Reef a race.

When I look at the big names on the list that I actually saw race, most of them represent spectacular performances, like Dayjur winning the 1990 Nunthorpe Stakes unchallenged in course record time, they were not great races just individual great horses.

 

[Cyclonic]

Dayjur was something else.

 

[bayernkenny]

Dayjur was something else.

Just watched Dayjur in Breeders Cup sprint again; including the famous 'jump'. Repeated views suggest he would indeed have won as he had moved about a neck clear of Safely Kept before the mishap. Thought the shadow may have been caused by the Churchill Downs towers however the meeting was held at Belmont Park in 1990.
My mum and I were at York in August that year to see him thrash a good field in the Nunthorpe.