At the moment the evidence points very strongly to the following - Black Caviar is a sprinter, Frankel a miler and Camelot a middle-distance colt (10F - 12F), which is the main reason why they are unlikely to meet. Black Caviar would have to step up to a mile to meet Frankel, a distance she has never tackled. Connections are already putting at least one bollock on the table by coming to Royal Ascot with her, it's a feck of a long way to come and I really hope she is able to put her best foot forward in the Diamond Jubilee. If she hoses up at Ascot it will be interesting to see what connections do next, but stepping up to a mile to tackle Frankel would, I imagine, be the last thing on their minds. Frankel, having likely romped home in the Queen Mary, will most probably be stepped up to 10 furlongs in the Juddmonte (assuming the Eclipse would be too soon after Ascot) so a meeting with Black Caviar is less likely than ever. His campaign looks highly likely to be restricted to 8 and 10 furlong races which, for me, makes any clash with Camelot unlikely. Possibly at 10 furlongs on Champions day. But people, remember back to Master Minded romping round Prestbury Park in his pomp and smashing the Champion Chase field by a country mile. Was our initial reaction that he must be stepped up in trip to face Kauto Star in the Gold Cup? Of course not. Did we clamour for Hurricane Fly to be stepped up to 3 miles for a face-off with Big Bucks? No. Every horse has it's optimum trip and for me the mark of a true great is beating all comers, not winning at all trips. For me Camelot scraped home in the Guineas, the speed of quicker rivals blunted by the soft ground. Frankel would annihilate him over a mile. Over 10 furlongs it would be closer but I would still be on Frankel. I'm not at all convinced about the triple crown plan with Camelot - Shergar looked like a one-paced plodder on town moor and people under estimate how difficult that additional distance is to get.
That's a dirty distance for purists Nass ("The Ryanair has diluted the quality of both the Champion Chase and The Gold Cup") Perhaps not the best example though
Excellent point. I remember the same questions were being asked of Hurricane Fly before the Champion Hurdle by a shrewd few, many had him down as a shoo-in and chose to ignore his speed figures after the last hurdle in each of his races. I'm no flat guru but from what I've seen of Camelot I think he's unbeatable over 12f+, Frankel unbeatable 8f-10f and Black Caviar is unlikely to ever race the distances these 2 are aimed at. Ultimately I admire the Aussie owners/trainers for flying their best 12000 miles to take on the best we have under our conditions, but connections of BC have already given up a hell of alot to ask their horse to run an unsuitable distance is pushing it. We had this in the mid 80's with horses like Miesque, Reference Point, Mtoto and a few others, plenty of media furore around a clash but at the end of the day connections had stud fees fixed firmly in their minds, may not necessarily be the case today but they all have to give their horses the best chance of succeeding....
Firstly I thought, and expected looking at the pedigree, Camelot looked a much better colt over further. The further he went the better he looked. I'd have thought he would be aiming at the Arc, rather than St Leger. The Triple Crown would be special, but lets be honest the last few winners have not been top notch midle distance runer and I don't think it would prove much other than he stays the trip. They ought to look at Sea The Stars and have a crack at open-age Group 1s. Go and prove something, do something special, even if it is heroic defeat. People remember titanic battles, not facile winners against questionable opposition, so I say skip the St Leger. I think Black Caviar will laugh at our sprinters but she won't face Frankel- sadly they are just not quite aligned with distances. I would want Camelot Arc bound. And if Frankel proves he handles 10f impressively, I'd seriously consider the Arc. For me if Frankel won the Juddmonte then the Arc, he would simply be close to untouchable. He'd be up there with Dancing Brave in racing folklore. He has looked like he has settled so much better this year that I am optimistic of him staying the middle distances. But this nonsense of being unbeaten seems to take precedence. Just whilst we were on the topic, would you disregard Frankels electric wins over a mile/10f against genuine Group1 class horses if he finished 3rf or 4th in an Arc for not sting the trip? I would heap praise on him for trying it. I was different when he was 2 and 3, he was headstrong. But now Queally seems to understand his rhtyhm a lot better and I think knows how to judge whe he lets him have a bit of reign. Same for Camelot and Black Caviar. If they turned up and got put in their place by Frankel, is it not just a testament to the victor that they beat such class animals so well? Too much concerned around breeding and business and the spectacle is simply detracted from.
Toppy - Wouldn't the racing public just love to see the head to heads that we could potentially have...? Its just a shame that we will never get to see it...
What i don't understand is why not just roll with it and appreciate these horses and their records instead of trying to see them race one another, let all 3 be greats at what they do, the more the merrier, it would be fascinating to see them in action ok, but then 1 would have to play 2nd fiddle and why do that? Is it just the publics selfishness so they can say ''ha'' i told you so and so was better than him/her.
To start i would like to say i very much like Camalot and think he could potentially be a very good horse. I do however have a difficulty in fitting him with a crown at such an early stage. He has won well beating nothing of proven note, look back over every victory and he has done nothing wrong but beaten no horses which can provide a high rating. This is not his fault of course but should prevent us crowning him so early to the extent that we are suggesting Frankel may duck out of a showdown. I feel we are getting carried away with his how he won the Derby. There is a horse running at Sandown tomorrow called Poole Harbour, it should be backed as the style in which it won last week was breathtaking and 6ib is not going to stop it tomorrow in my opinion. I promise you however It is not ever going to beat Frankel despite the manor and authority of that victory last week. This is because it beat nothing of note and if you read through Poole Harbours form it has no horses that suggest it could mix it with the best because it won well but it was a Kempton Handicap. The same thing applies with Camalot to a large extent, it won well but beating what, you can only judge form by opponents. If you had £1000 to put on Excelebration or Camalot over a mile at Newmarket who would you put it on? At this stage i would put it firmly on Excelebration. Over a mile and half at Epsom a £1000 on Camalot or St Nicholas Abbey ? I would go St Nicholas Abbey. It's not because i don't rate Camalots potential but rather that Beating Main Sequance and French Fifteen is not actually form of note. Frankel i feel has ducked no one, he was not ntered in the Derby wisely as he has too much speed for 12f even though his class may have got him home but ruined him. I feel he would more likely have proven better over 6f than 12f. If he was ducking horses he would never have taken on Canford Cliffs who at the time of their meeting looked red hot having beaten Goldikova and everything else in a cantor, as we know Frankel ren all over him and had extinguished him as a threat before the furlong pole.
Completely disagree re the Triple Crown. I think Camelot attempting it and winning it would be fantastic for him and for racing in general. When I think of greats of the past Nijinsky is invariably right at the top of the list, and I think the same applies to other people. We get Derby and Arc winners every year but Triple Crown winners just don't come around very often. We should cherish the moment because it's unlikely we will see it again for a long time.
