No mate that's not the question Im asking.
The fans are now saying it's a championship squad having ridiculed Bruce for not doing better than 12th with this squad?
Is it not time to admit that the fans were wrong and moved the goalposts throughout?
The Steve Bruce appreciation thread
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No mate that's not the question Im asking.
The fans are now saying it's a championship squad having ridiculed Bruce for not doing better than 12th with this squad?
Is it not time to admit that the fans were wrong and moved the goalposts throughout?
I don’t think Bruce could have done better than 12th last season.
You know my opinions of him but I praised him ultimately for the position we finished in.
I deal with the facts as they are when I make my opinion. Mid season last year it looked rocky. In the end he did good.
The problem is this season it’s just fallen apart.
Yes you did have the good grace to just say fair enough he did well in the end I remember these things.
This season it was time to go, but I'm asking why all of a sudden people are now saying the sides a championship squad having said the very opposite under bruce?
I actually know the answer but I want to see if anyone has the good grace to admit it and apologise for their bullying of Bruce.
But it is a championship squad. 11 of the players were players either at the club or bought to get us out the championship. There is no denying that. In the 4th season following promotion it should be way better than it is in terms of quality, in terms of positions, in terms of experience and in terms of balance. That is the fault of a few people. Namely Charnley/Ashley/Nickson/Rafa/Bruce - They all have to take responsibility.
However despite the lack of spending the players should have improved and they have regressed massively. Whilst not his biggest fan Rafa seemed to get performances out of a number of these players (The one's there under his time) that Bruce simply couldn't. I'm mainly looking at Lascelles, Clark, Shelvey, Ritchie, Longstaff here.
Now I know your going to come up with this line that Bruce got us 12th last season. That was a Joe Willock inspired fluke of the highest order which in turn, I will admit raised the expectations of most fans that we could kick on and break mid table comfortably.
However the entire squad started this season looking like the average age of them was 38. I know your being kind of controversial but bog standard fitness being as bad as that after pre-season is criminal. For that reason alone he should have been slung out. It was a dereliction of his duties. It wasn't lacking match sharpness, it was blowing out their arses after 20 minutes in some cases (looking at Clark and Fist Bumps here).
When you add this to Bruce's attitude towards the fans and the media it was time to sling his hook. Again I understand that you will say he was defending himself and rightfully so etc. However my view on this is he knew exactly what he was getting into, he knew it would turn very sour, very quickly yet wanted to go ahead anyway. That is fair enough as he was an NUFC fan. However to then start all this crap that he won't walk away etc as that isn't his style was bullshit and the fans knew it. His constant bigging up opposition whilst undermining our players became tiring, and the fans knew it, this constant complaining and comparing of Rafa was an embarrassment and the fans knew it.
The man should never ever ever have been appointed. The club's moved on, the fans have moved on, Bruce has moved on. Maybe its time you do too and we all get behind the team to the best of our abilities as bad as yesterday was and as bad as the whole season's results have been.
I think Eddie is simply being hamstrung in the same way Rafa and Bruce were. Even moreso he's been left with a squad bereft of confidence. The fans refuse to accept Bruce was given a rough ride by them. Yet two other managers have produced similar with the same tools, so is it the manager or is it the tools? The tools look sub par to me.
Joelinton has become more useful for the current manager. He looked a lost cause at one stage during Bruce's reign. Towards the end of his reign, and during the new managers, he's started to show signs he can be useful. One player picking up form isn't going to be enough though. We have a squad which looks capable of mixing it in a relegation dogfight. That's our current level on squad abilities. I think its very difficult for any manager, to squeeze much more. The fans should look back on Bruces 12th place and think "actually you know what he did a good job there". They gave Rafa plenty of credit for similar results. Eddie is getting plenty of backing despite not managing to turn the ship around as yet.
All in all, in its current state squad wise, its a bit of a poisoned chalice. It will change in the coming years and we just have to be patient.
Joelinton has become more useful for the current manager. He looked a lost cause at one stage during Bruce's reign. Towards the end of his reign, and during the new managers, he's started to show signs he can be useful. One player picking up form isn't going to be enough though. We have a squad which looks capable of mixing it in a relegation dogfight. That's our current level on squad abilities. I think its very difficult for any manager, to squeeze much more. The fans should look back on Bruces 12th place and think "actually you know what he did a good job there". They gave Rafa plenty of credit for similar results. Eddie is getting plenty of backing despite not managing to turn the ship around as yet.
All in all, in its current state squad wise, its a bit of a poisoned chalice. It will change in the coming years and we just have to be patient.
This the point mate. The fans were saying it was a better side than it was performing under bruce after finishing 12th and they used that to bolster their assault on Bruce, so I've basically won.
I agree. Bruce was pre judged and up against it. It was always going to end the way it did because of who and what he is perceived to be.
Bruce, like Rafa and Pardew before him was hamstrung by a lack of investment by Ashley. I won't mention McLaren as he got some funds, some how.
This season and its failings are not all down to Bruce - I admit that. I will defend that. Ashley has to take responsibility but will point to impending takeover etc.
However players blowing out arses, unable to press properly, unable to even jockey properly and making the same poor decisions on a regular basis is the coach's fault when he's had so long to work with them. If they can't or won't do what is asked of them, you drop them, captain or not big earner or not. This was Bruce's fault.
Playing players out of natural positions was Bruce's fault. It can work short term but never long term.
The lack of fresh blood and fresh ideas have simply made us far too easy to scout and come up with a game plan to neutralise. Attack down the right, target Ritchie and Clark. Double up on ASM and its simples.
Bruce, like Rafa and Pardew before him was hamstrung by a lack of investment by Ashley. I won't mention McLaren as he got some funds, some how.
This season and its failings are not all down to Bruce - I admit that. I will defend that. Ashley has to take responsibility but will point to impending takeover etc.
However players blowing out arses, unable to press properly, unable to even jockey properly and making the same poor decisions on a regular basis is the coach's fault when he's had so long to work with them. If they can't or won't do what is asked of them, you drop them, captain or not big earner or not. This was Bruce's fault.
Playing players out of natural positions was Bruce's fault. It can work short term but never long term.
The lack of fresh blood and fresh ideas have simply made us far too easy to scout and come up with a game plan to neutralise. Attack down the right, target Ritchie and Clark. Double up on ASM and its simples.
I'm not fighting with you mate so wouldn't see it as a win unless your aim is to get us to admit we had unrealistic expectations of a top half finish based on the performances after Joe Willock's arrival last season. In which case I admit, I expected much better. I honestly thought we had a cracking squad for this year and I did believe we should kick on. Its turned out to be a disaster. I never in a million years expected so many professional athletes to go so far backwards in fitness and technical ability in such a short space of time.
I will say Howe has them looking fitter, lets hope the technical blips can be reversed somehow with a bit of confidence after we win the next 3.
Max looks worse under Howe
No mate please don't think we're ever fighting It's just I've been engaged in the battle for ages and I know I've got a smoking gun
I personally think Willock papered over some gaping cracks.
But the points and table is now set in history.
Who do you blame for this season? It as you say should be the collective and including the players.
I get what @I want Mackem Cock is saying. And he is falling behind a pure fact which he can do because the fact is Bruce did a good job in the end last season because he finished 12th.
For the record I absolutely hate the man.
Thanks and respect.. I can totally understand that because I never liked him and wanted him out, but It's simple with me of the teams getting results I give credit and if they're poor ill criticise.
It became a desperate fanbase more interested in winning an argument in the end. Now they might lose it completely if Howe takes is down
Its balance isn't it. Bruce was a **** manager, and deserved to be sacked. He wasn't turning that around for me. You could argue Rafa deserved to be sacked in his 2nd PL season when we didn't have a win after 11 games. We've got to look and think hang on nee **** is finding this easy going. Its purely down to investment and I struggle to get too disappointed with any manager. I think the damning thing for Bruce for me is he never developed any sort of style or stamp to how his team played. Rafa I couldn't stand the football and I was glad when he left, but at least you could say he had a style. Eddie I like the best, his style is clearly attacking and I can see a plan. I'd kinda excuse any impending relegation. But he'd have to deliver next year regardless of league if we invest.
The fans just allow personal opinions or how much they like someone as a person to influence how they view someone in terms of success. Both Rafa and Bruce had their successes, but I think Rafa had the clearer plan. I think you have to try to be more objective. Its like the F1. I think Hamilton is a ****. I think Max is a ****. Both great drivers though.
The one thing that overrides the whole thing though is a chronic lack of care and investment from the owners, overarching every reign (bar maybe McClarens) since Ashley took charge.
I know we're not mate. I actually agree with some of your opinions and observations, I just don't get why you keep pushing so strongly on it.
I will leave mine simply as this on the matter.
Does KK deserve his legendary reputation here - without a doubt
Does SBR deserve his legendary reputation here - without a doubt
Does Rafa deserve to have his reputation here - does he ****.
Did Steve Bruce get compared to Rafa and his unwarranted reputation unfairly - Yes. But so did Keegan's predecessors and Sir Bobby's.
I still stand by my opinion Bruce shouldn't have been within 13 miles of our club.
There's a few reasons
1. being mocked throughout
2. It's all good discussion
3. It's banter (suppose that falls into no1)
4. And lastly and most importantly I
enjoy being an irritating ****
I originally had put something like number 4 in brackets behind the "I don't get why your pushing so strongly on it"
I originally had put something like number 4 in brackets behind the "I don't get why your pushing so strongly on it"
I'm always willing to accept other peoples opinions, but once a bit of back a forth starts taking place I make a mental note of it and after that I will be in hot pursuit of them on that subject for the rest of their lives
I'm just wondering whether people have finally realised the issue was always the players and that Bruce did well with them?
He done great to not win a single game this season
Give it up man. He's gone. Nobody likes him except Alex Bruce, you and ya da @Warm Pouch
I'm not sure mate I think the other clubs strengthened and we did nothing.
There's now no doubt in my mind that the current players are simply not good enough.
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