The science behind RHCs liver thread

[saintanton]

You must log in or register to see media

Reminds me of Lennon's house in that Imagine video (yeas, the song when he talks about imagining no possessions as he walks around his multi-million-pound mansion) that has a sign above the door that says 'This is not really here'. Links up with that Wheeler/Anthropic Theory/Penrose stuff, maybe?

All of this stuff seems to me to be as much a philosophical debate as a scientific investigation.
Douglas Adams' puddle analogy seems more compelling to me than any teleological hypothesis.
As for consciousness, I had no existence before I was born, so why should I expect to have any after I die?

 

[THE FOOL]

All of this stuff seems to me to be as much a philosophical debate as a scientific investigation.
Douglas Adams' puddle analogy seems more compelling to me than any teleological hypothesis.
As for consciousness, I had no existence before I was born, so why should I expect to have any after I die?

How do you know you had no consciousness before you where born?

Past lives, reincarnation, God the devil, aliens it all makes about as much sense as anything else.

When talking about things of this nature out knowledge is so minute it's ridiculous to discount anything.

 

[saintanton]

How do you know you had no consciousness before you where born?

Past lives, reincarnation, God the devil, aliens it all makes about as much sense as anything else.

When talking about things of this nature out knowledge is so minute it's ridiculous to discount anything.

If I have no recollection of it then essentially it isn't me.
Like I said, it's a philosophical debate, so everything I say is to be taken in that context - it's my belief.
As an entity I exist after conception until death. Outside of that there are only the parts that made me.
God and the Devil make no sense to me at all.
Alien life is highly probable, but the idea that we are routinely visited by it is highly improbable.
Reincarnation and such are dependent on believing we are special and have an existence beyond what we know, and I don't believe in a special status for humanity.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

in theory you will exist as long you your dead husk is still somewhat intact and recognisable.

In the end a reincarnated person could meet their former selves many times just by visiting their graves.

 

[Milk..]

If I have no recollection of it then essentially it isn't me.

Well, one could fall into a coma for a few months and then wake up and not remember anything the coma began.

I'm sure I've had forgettable days where nothing has entered my long-term memory from those days.

Btw... I'm not saying I disagree with you about not having consciousness before and after life. I suspect there is none too.

So, other question: if in the future humanity manages to upload a brain's contents and thoufhts to a computer and simulate their consciousness. Is that person the same person as the body they uploaded from? In Star Trek when people beam... Are the committing suicide and a new clone is created on the other side of the beam each time they beam?

 

[saintanton]

Well, one could fall into a coma for a few months and then wake up and not remember anything the coma began.

I'm sure I've had forgettable days where nothing has entered my long-term memory from those days.

Btw... I'm not saying I disagree with you about not having consciousness before and after life. I suspect there is none too.

So, other question: if in the future humanity manages to upload a brain's contents and thoufhts to a computer and simulate their consciousness. Is that person the same person as the body they uploaded from? In Star Trek when people beam... Are the committing suicide and a new clone is created on the other side of the beam each time they beam?

I anticipated this question when I read my post. I can see this argument - you could say that subjectively you are a different person but obviously to everyone else you're still the same one.
I'm sure you realise that I'm referring to before conception. Until then you are not an individual, just cells waiting to become one. I don't see how that can have any relation to previous lives, especially physically unrelated ones that reincarnation might allow.
It works if you think that the body is merely a vessel and we are the ghosts in the machine, but I don't believe in that.
Genetic memory could be a thing, but that's still speculation.

 

[Milk..]

I anticipated this question when I read my post. I can see this argument - you could say that subjectively you are a different person but obviously to everyone else you're still the same one.
I'm sure you realise that I'm referring to before conception. Until then you are not an individual, just cells waiting to become one. I don't see how that can have any relation to previous lives, especially physically unrelated ones that reincarnation might allow.
It works if you think that the body is merely a vessel and we are the ghosts in the machine, but I don't believe in that.
Genetic memory could be a thing, but that's still speculation.

I don't disagree with any of that. Consciousness existing prior to conception relies on belief of either the supernatural, such as a deity, or some scientific process that is completely undetectable by modern science.

Genetic memory does exist in the form of epigenetics. Children and grandchildren of people who lived through famine are more likely to develop obesity even if adopted and raised by a different family. Certain environmental stresses can alter what genes our cells turn on and off without actually changing our DNA... And that is inheritable. Certainly not the same as consciousness, but lifetime experiences our parents faced could impact our epigenetics which alters our personalities. So I guess in some strange way, we do carry the memory of our mothers from before our own birth.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Well, one could fall into a coma for a few months and then wake up and not remember anything the coma began.

I'm sure I've had forgettable days where nothing has entered my long-term memory from those days.

Btw... I'm not saying I disagree with you about not having consciousness before and after life. I suspect there is none too.

So, other question: if in the future humanity manages to upload a brain's contents and thoufhts to a computer and simulate their consciousness. Is that person the same person as the body they uploaded from? In Star Trek when people beam... Are the committing suicide and a new clone is created on the other side of the beam each time they beam?

Always said that. There was a cracking French film called Oxygen out last year: I won't tell the plot in case some want to watch it, but it touches on consciousness. Because the brain is plastic and, in theory, you can track the paths of the electro-magnetism in the brain (not yet) like, in theory, you could study the earth's weather patterns and trackback every day in existence (!), you COULD recreate a consciousness and memory (Regor Penrose would disagree). This, in some peoples' minds, is what quantum computers would offer. See Devs on BBC a couple of years back too.

But I say this as a point to Saint (whom I don't disagree with): I had a major op nearly five years to the day (prostatectomy), the first time under the ether, apart from having a tooth out and a biopsy, since I had my tonsils out when 10. I have absolutely no recollection of what happened between going under @ 10 am until waking in the ward @ 4 pm. Apparently, in recovery (much to their amusement) I was rambling on about Apollo missions, boring them with my recollection of when I met Paul McCartney, and singing Poor Scouser Tommy at the top of my voice. So, like being blind drunk, as I have no conscious memory of it, was it me?

 

[Milk..]

Always said that. There was a cracking French film called Oxygen out last year: I won't tell the plot in case some want to watch it, but it touches on consciousness. Because the brain is plastic and, in theory, you can track the paths of the electro-magnetism in the brain (not yet) like, in theory, you could study the earth's weather patterns and trackback every day in existence (!), you COULD recreate a consciousness and memory (Regor Penrose would disagree). This, in some peoples' minds, is what quantum computers would offer. See Devs on BBC a couple of years back too.

But I say this as a point to Saint (whom I don't disagree with): I had a major op nearly five years to the day (prostatectomy), the first time under the ether, apart from having a tooth out and a biopsy, since I had my tonsils out when 10. I have absolutely no recollection of what happened between going under @ 10 am until waking in the ward @ 4 pm. Apparently, in recovery (much to their amusement) I was rambling on about Apollo missions, boring them with my recollection of when I met Paul McCartney, and singing Poor Scouser Tommy at the top of my voice. So, like being blind drunk, as I have no conscious memory of it, was it me?

I definitely think one day we will be able to artificially replicate consciousness electronically. It will never be 100% the same bit a good approximation.

There's a lot more to consciousness than the brain. There are hormones and biological triggers such as hunger and needing to pee which alter how we think. (People who need to pee have better memories and score better on tests than people with empty bladders) Even gut bacteria have been linked to biological triggers. Different bacteria in your gut can impact signals sent to the brain.

Mapping the brain and consciousness patterns is probably possible within a few lifetimes. I don't know it will ever be the same without the biological inputs though.

 

[saintanton]

I don't disagree with any of that. Consciousness existing prior to conception relies on belief of either the supernatural, such as a deity, or some scientific process that is completely undetectable by modern science.

Genetic memory does exist in the form of epigenetics. Children and grandchildren of people who lived through famine are more likely to develop obesity even if adopted and raised by a different family. Certain environmental stresses can alter what genes our cells turn on and off without actually changing our DNA... And that is inheritable. Certainly not the same as consciousness, but lifetime experiences our parents faced could impact our epigenetics which alters our personalities. So I guess in some strange way, we do carry the memory of our mothers from before our own birth.

I don't pretend to understand epigenetics beyond the basic level. (Tbh, I don't pretend to understand anything beyond the basic level )
All I know is that epigenetic changes influence the gene expression but they don't alter DNA in the way that mutation does, so yes there is an element of epigenetic inheritance that supports the genetic memory idea. But like you say, this isn't an aspect of consciousness.
The more I learn about anything the more fascinating the complexity of nature becomes. I wish it were possible to understand it all, but the little I do know leads me to believe that everything we see is the inevitable consequence of myriad natural processes with no need for supernatural intervention.

 

[saintanton]

Always said that. There was a cracking French film called Oxygen out last year: I won't tell the plot in case some want to watch it, but it touches on consciousness. Because the brain is plastic and, in theory, you can track the paths of the electro-magnetism in the brain (not yet) like, in theory, you could study the earth's weather patterns and trackback every day in existence (!), you COULD recreate a consciousness and memory (Regor Penrose would disagree). This, in some peoples' minds, is what quantum computers would offer. See Devs on BBC a couple of years back too.

But I say this as a point to Saint (whom I don't disagree with): I had a major op nearly five years to the day (prostatectomy), the first time under the ether, apart from having a tooth out and a biopsy, since I had my tonsils out when 10. I have absolutely no recollection of what happened between going under @ 10 am until waking in the ward @ 4 pm. Apparently, in recovery (much to their amusement) I was rambling on about Apollo missions, boring them with my recollection of when I met Paul McCartney, and singing Poor Scouser Tommy at the top of my voice. So, like being blind drunk, as I have no conscious memory of it, was it me?

Sounds like you.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I anticipated this question when I read my post. I can see this argument - you could say that subjectively you are a different person but obviously to everyone else you're still the same one.
I'm sure you realise that I'm referring to before conception. Until then you are not an individual, just cells waiting to become one. I don't see how that can have any relation to previous lives, especially physically unrelated ones that reincarnation might allow.
It works if you think that the body is merely a vessel and we are the ghosts in the machine, but I don't believe in that.
Genetic memory could be a thing, but that's still speculation.

how about childhood memories.

one could contend that 99% of people at least do not remember anything from before 4? maybe 5? so does that mean that those years you are not an individual?

 

[saintanton]

I definitely think one day we will be able to artificially replicate consciousness electronically. It will never be 100% the same bit a good approximation.

There's a lot more to consciousness than the brain. There are hormones and biological triggers such as hunger and needing to pee which alter how we think. (People who need to pee have better memories and score better on tests than people with empty bladders) Even gut bacteria have been linked to biological triggers. Different bacteria in your gut can impact signals sent to the brain.

Mapping the brain and consciousness patterns is probably possible within a few lifetimes. I don't know it will ever be the same without the biological inputs though.

I think it's a good point that what makes us who we are is a combination of the brain and all the chemical feedback and sensory stimuli it gets from the body - that we can't divorce the intellect from the body that houses it.

 

[saintanton]

how about childhood memories.

one could contend that 99% of people at least do not remember anything from before 4? maybe 5? so does that mean that those years you are not an individual?

I've already said that I'm talking about the awareness of a previous life, not limitations or glitches in what is obviously the same entity.

 

[Milk..]

how about childhood memories.

one could contend that 99% of people at least do not remember anything from before 4? maybe 5? so does that mean that those years you are not an individual?

One could contend that "Me" is only the me of the current time. I know I'm a very different human being with different thought processes and emotional processing than I had as a five year old. I share very little in common with five year old me other than a couple of memories and my DNA.

Is five year old me the same person as fifteen year old me, and twenty-five year old me, and current me?

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

One could contend that "Me" is only the me of the current time. I know I'm a very different human being with different thought processes and emotional processing than I had as a five year old. I share very little in common with five year old me other than a couple of memories and my DNA.

Is five year old me the same person as fifteen year old me, and twenty-five year old me, and current me?

if you broke a leg at 5 the bone scar would be there.

If you murdered someone at 15 you'd be in jail for life so your "current me" wouldn't be able to claim someone else did it in a court of law.

 

[Milk..]

if you broke a leg at 5 the bone scar would be there.

If you murdered someone at 15 you'd be in jail for life so your "current me" wouldn't be able to claim someone else did it in a court of law.

I do have a lot of scars that are no longer visible fromy childhood... Even some of my childhood scars that lasted decades have now faded away. One massive one that I had on my entire upper arm from a bike accident when 14 lasted well into my thirties but is no longer visible. I thought that one would stay for life.


Court of law is not court of science and theoretically, jail is for prevention of crimes not retribution, so jailing a current "me" for crimes done by a past "me" would make sense because it would encourage current "yous" to not commit crimes.

 

[organic red]

I was listening to some of this before the game last night. Aubrey Marcus is a very cool dude,and the guy he's talking to claims to
remember many past lives and talks about Atlantis,aswell as singing songs in the Atlantean language. Enjoy

You must log in or register to see media

 

[saintanton]

I was listening to some of this before the game last night. Aubrey Marcus is a very cool dude,and the guy he's talking to claims to
remember many past lives and talks about Atlantis,aswell as singing songs in the Atlantean language. Enjoy

You must log in or register to see media

Can't be bothered going through all of that - I've seen enough of this stuff to last a lifetime.
So, how does he claim the pyramids were built?

 

[Diego]

I was listening to some of this before the game last night. Aubrey Marcus is a very cool dude,and the guy he's talking to claims to
remember many past lives and talks about Atlantis,aswell as singing songs in the Atlantean language. Enjoy

You must log in or register to see media

How do we know it's the "Atlantean language" and not just gibberish?
Do many people speak Atlantean these days?