The Rooney Rule

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PleaseNotPoll

PleaseNotPoll

Well-Known Member
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May 31, 2011
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No, not the one about an ugly, balding, stroppy striker who's currently banned, but the ongoing debate about non-white managers and coaches in the English game.
Trevor Brooking waded in today after there were suggestions that the FA could introduce the NFL's Rooney Rule.
This states that all the teams in that league have to interview one black or ethnic minority candidate for any senior coaching position available.
Paul Ince and Garth Crooks have both spoken out in favour of adopting the rule over here.

The lack of people from those backgrounds in senior positions is slightly worrying and probably does have something to do with a lot of the current owners and directors.
The same issue used to affect players and I think that it still does in some ways, particularly with homegrown Asian youngsters.
I don't think that this is an effective way to combat the situation, though.

Interviews can be enforced. Successful interviews can't.

Time will probably see most of those who are discriminating being replaced, one way or another, but other than that and education I'm not sure what else can be done.
You can't force people to hire or retain staff that they don't want, especially in such key roles.
Can anyone think of a way around this, as I certainly can't.
 
Its a ridiculous rule and idea that might bring a couple of short term non-White coaches into the game but will ultimately go nowhere towards solving any of the problems that are stopping them being there now. And even if a candidate who was interviewed as a matter of procedure who go the job would always have the label of being "the guy they had to interview, but didn't want to", which would probably do him no favours. Within the interview it would probably be a farce, and very uncomfortable for all involved.

The FA should continue to allow the clubs to operate a meritocracy in these matters while actually attempting to solve cultural attitudes towards race issues within the game that will have long term benefits to everyone in football and possibly wider society as a whole. I personally have little to no idea how to do this, but any attempt to do it is a whole better than bringing in a 'Rooney Rule' which is effectively a sticking plaster to placate the voices of influential people within the game who are rightly seeking answers to the question why there are few non-White coaches at the top level of English (or indeed European) football, but are completely barking up the wrong tree for a solution that will have a lasting effect.
 
PleaseNotPoll said:
Interviews can be enforced. Successful interviews can't.

Time will probably see most of those who are discriminating being replaced, one way or another, but other than that and education I'm not sure what else can be done.
You can't force people to hire or retain staff that they don't want, especially in such key roles.
Can anyone think of a way around this, as I certainly can't.
Click to expand...

The Rooney rule was named after Dan Rooney, president of the Pittsburgh Steelers (my local NFL team). This is a difficult issue. First of all, we would like the best person to get the job. Many including myself believe that non-whites don't tend to get a fair shake, because they tend to be on the outside of the old boys' networks. It wasn't that long ago that there were not many non-white players in English football. So people of color tend to be relative latecomers, with relatively weak networks, and tend therefore to be afterthoughts to the ones doing the hiring. We'll all tend to hire those we have known for a long time and trust, and PL executives very likely tend to have long-term, close relationships with white people disproportionately.

The problem at this point isn't, I think, nearly as much the persistence of racism as with the tendency of people who are not racists to hire people they are more familiar with, who tend to be of their own race. To put it another way, the problem isn't in the hearts of football executives, though there is undoubtedly a bad ticker or five, it's that a game featuring great ethnic diversity has got an all white group of managers and head coaches at the top level.

So, what to do about it?

"Dr. Jason Johnson, Professor of Political Science at Hiram College, describes the Rooney Rule as the “quintessential example of the best of intentions with no actual enforcement.”

Most reasonable people would like to promote diversity while stopping short of reverse discrimination. The requirement to interview minority applicants seems to work at least to some extent. The NFL went from 0 non-white head coaches to maybe 5 or so, (but is now back down to 2).

While the Rooney Rule may well do too little, it stops a long way short of reverse discrimination. So why not institute it as a first step, then see if further measures are needed?
 
The one thing I seriously hope to see if The FA are dumb enough to implement this rule is that every sixth team in the Football League is managed by somebody named Singh, Assad, Lee or Crazy Horse, just to see how long it takes for the Peter Herberts of the world to complain that jobs in football management are being given to the "wrong" minorities - which is a statement that can only be described with a word that rhymes with "bassist."
 
There are more players from ethnic minorities now than there has been at any point in the past. As these players age and retire from football I'd imagine plenty of them will go into coaching or management.

I'd be interested to know what the figures are for black people applying for management jobs at the moment to see if there is actually just less interest to become managers.
 
Another factor is the obscene wages PL players earn,
Whatever the ethnic background most are financially secure for life when their
playing career ends. Wanting to be a manager is then a matter of intellectual challenge,
 
The RDBD said:
Another factor is the obscene wages PL players earn,
Whatever the ethnic background most are financially secure for life when their
playing career ends. Wanting to be a manager is then a matter of intellectual challenge,
Click to expand...

Are you saying they aren't as smart as white people?
 
"Are you saying they aren't as smart as white people?"

Who is compelled by the intellectual challenge of football management ??
Most players aren't, so once their playing career ends and with plenty of cash
in the bank, they are done with that side of the game.
 
There is no such thing as positive discrimination.

You can help to change attitudes and cultures, but forcing those who run clubs to consider candidates they might not otherwise wish to will be counterproductive. The rule puts race at the top of the agenda when surely the intention should be to do just the opposite and have black and ethnic minority candidates considered on merit.

I don't know how many black ex-players consider getting their coaching badges, but the impression is that it is not as many as it could or should be. Of course, if they feel there are limited opportunities in management, they might not set off on that career path, but perhaps if more came forward with the right qualifications, more opportunities would present themselves. I don't think there is inherent prejudice in the game; football, unlike cricket or rugby union, say, has always been a meritocracy. There is no old school tie or old boys network. With the pressure on owners to have success quickly at their clubs, I'm not inclined to suppose there is some racial prejudice at work which would see them reject the better candidate for coaching/managerial positions on the grounds of their race or ethnic background when clearly they don't do so when acquiring players.

You have to look at the demographic of football managers too. There is no correlation between being a great player and a great manager. Many top managers were average players at best. As already mentioned, many top players now retire comfortably well off. Many don't need the challenges and stresses of being a manager. It is more likely that managers will have looked at coaching as an option before they retired as players. Whilst none of this rules out black players, it's fair to say that so far as the PL is concerned, a significant proportion of black players are from overseas and don't necessarily finish their careers here, so they don't remain to progress through the coaching ranks. Many are the top players who may not choose coaching. That still leaves the black British players underrepresented in management, but that's a smaller group than the statistics suggest are being overlooked.

If the real issue is the lack of black players seeking a career in coaching/management because they don't believe they will be given a chance, then the onus is on the F.A and P.F.A to be more proactive in giving careers advice, in making it more viable for them to obtain the coaching qualifications and in helping them to apply for jobs.
 
I assume what RDBD is trying to convey is that most modern Premier League stars aren't going to use their network of contacts to go into coaching, regardless of their race.
This leaves us with the status quo and with a lot of minority coaches with no way into the game, especially at the top level.
The influx of foreign managers probably isn't helping, either. There are even less minority coaches in Spain, Italy and Germany, I think.
 
Statistically you are talking about a small proportion (ethnic minorities) of another small
proportion (ex-players who desire the challenge of football management) .

So no surprise the current "representation" is what it is.
 
The RDBD said:
Statistically you are talking about a small proportion (ethnic minorities) of another small
proportion (ex-players who desire the challenge of football management) .

So no surprise the current "representation" is what it is.
Click to expand...

I see what you mean RDBD but the % of non white players isn't that small is it?
 
I worry that the Rooney rule may be too weak. Everyone else, it seems, thinks it's too strong, counterproductive, a bad idea, smacking of regulation of the worst kind, etc. I don't see it. I think there are old boys, or in-group networks in everything. Everyone tends to hire their relatives, friends and neighbors. So those who tend to be outside whatever networks there are tend to get the short end of the stick. So, what to do about it? Nothing, is the traditional answer, and continues to be a popular one.

I admit I'm stumped. Affirmative action is an old issue and an old dilemma in the US. My answer is to have affirmative action based on family wealth, not race. That way you benefit those who do have a disadvantage, and you benefit minorities insofar as they are disadvantaged, and only that far. In the US, affirmative action programs based on race have a history of being entitlement programs for middle class minorities, while doing nothing to help those who need it, poor minorities and poor white people.

Clearly, that isn't the answer for the lack of minorities in top coaching jobs, either in the US or anywhere else. But I don't see the harm in making those hiring at least interview a minority candidate. I don't see why those interviewing would see the requirement as a regulation to be gotten around. Why not go about it in a good spirit? A lot of the hiring of coaches and managers in any sport consists of recycling the usual suspects, which I think is almost always a mistake. New faces of any kind should be considered more often than they are. I suspect many might welcome a requirement to cast their net wider.

It certainly worked for the Steelers. Mike Tomlin won the Super Bowl the year after he was hired.
 
You can't fix things like this in just football, it has to be fixed country-wide and globally. Being a silly sausage i quite like the way post war (and later) Germany dealt with any lingering Nazism (is that how you spell that?).......with comedy. They ran tv adverts ripping the piss out of Nazis on the, erm, tv (thats normally where tv adverts are run i believe).

This post was brought to you by a half-asleep Spurm with poor brain function
 
John Barnes became manager at Celtic amid great chants of hooray, I shook my head at the appointment because I didn't think that he had the character for it. Rio Ferdinand perhaps as a coach but I'm struggling to think of more. Chris Hughton was a good player as was Barnes but no great shakes as coaches. I don't think players should be appointed as coaches just because of the colour of their skin, it should be done on character and ability regardless.
 
The Mighty Thor said:
John Barnes became manager at Celtic amid great chants of hooray, I shook my head at the appointment because I didn't think that he had the character for it. Rio Ferdinand perhaps as a coach but I'm struggling to think of more. Chris Hughton was a good player as was Barnes but no great shakes as coaches. I don't think players should be appointed as coaches just because of the colour of their skin, it should be done on character and ability regardless.
Click to expand...

Which white players do you think would make good managers? I would suggest you never know until they have a go - hopefully as a coach first and earn the right to take a team. While they were playing did many think Allardyce, Lambert, Redknapp, Poyet, Koeman would go on to be prem managers? Let alone Wenger and Mourinho who barely figured as players.
 
KingHotspur said:
I see what you mean RDBD but the % of non white players isn't that small is it?
Click to expand...

At a guess, and considering world wide population and race, it seems proportional to me when looking at the English Premier League, except for the Asian representation. Just considering the English population, it's skewed as far as players are concerned. Managers - seems about right.

I couldn't give a **** to be honest. Judge people by their words and actions, not anything else. Crappy Rooney Rule is a slippery slope. They'll be wanting 50% women managers next...

NB:

Wiki says there are 50 large ethnic groups - one manager from each group? Job shares? Ridiculous.

There are no definite answers but the breakdown for the word population is roughly:

Asian 53%
White 16%
Black 15%
Middle Eastern 8%
Central/South American 8%

British population:

White 87%
Asian 7%
Black 3%
Mixed 2%
Other 1%
 
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