Off Topic The QPR Not 606 Rolling Election Poll

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Did he try working abroad himself?

 

Labour may not have 'caused' the financial crisis, but they were utterly incompetent in 'managing' our way through it. If you want a strong economy built on proper rules and not shored up with endless borrowing, you need a Conservative government. Labour have NEVER been able to manage the economy properly.

 

Not sure what sense you put behind 'money tight employers'. The sense I put behind it is employers who want to pay as little as possible and are therefore delighted that we, the taxpayers, subsidise low pay more that any other large country in Europe (and more than all except Denmark. Ireland and Luxembourg) to make working worthwhile. So the availability of work and a subsidised living wage make the UK an attractive destination for immigrants. The subsidies are of course intended to help British citizens, the immigration bit is a side effect. Should we let the free market rule, take away the subsidies, see if British business is really competitive...and then see the jobs disappear entirely? If you are a free market Tory the only answer can be yes, and the only answer to immigration can be totally open doors, its a market after all.

Stinks doesn't it? If this discussion continues I'll give the ultimate example of capital's view of labour (i.e human beings).

Supply and demand, that's capitalism.

 

Didn't mean any offence Soops (re bro in-law or yourself). Was just attempt at bad joke

 

No. You got the answer there. Only way that works really. Total freedom of movement thoughout the world and the plusses and minuses of all the different places will balance out eventually - people will go where they want to go and to what suits their abilities and needs best.

 

It was a tongue in cheek question mate. I (and I think you and many others on here) have and continue to benefit from the freedom to work just about anywhere. Because there is a market for whatever we do we 'win' from capitalism even though we are not fans of it. Of course there is no logic for a capitalist to oppose the free movement of labour, unless somehow it drives labour costs up or leads to a shortage of skills where he/she is based. But all that means is whatever they are doing is not competitive. Capitalism has always been international, a relentless search for markets, resources and profit, dragging countries into empire building in it's wake. "Capitalism in one country" which the free market anti EU end of the Tory party and Kippers seem to want is a self contradictory piece of doublethink.

 

Well I may not speak for everyone on here and weather your a lefty or a righty or a centery or a non voter I bet most will agree, I can't wait until this is over.

 

Absolute capitalism, like absolute free speech, brings unwelcome results and should be avoided. Let's bring things back to the practical. I'm no UKIP voter, but Farage was right when he said free movement of labour mandated by the EU, worked when the membership involved countries like France, Germany, Benelux states etc where all parties have a similar standard of living. But introduce a dozen or so ex-communist countries where prosperity can be less than a tenth of "Western countries", and they can severely undercut the job market in a country like the UK causing real hardship for workers like Sooper's brother in law who has had to sell his house. That cannot be right and the state should step in to mitigate adverse effects of uncontrolled immigration, by controlling it. The EU must agree to this or we should get out, imho.

 

I want freedom of movement everywhere set up and signed up to by the UN, regardless of the type of society, but as there is barely a non-Capitalist left that won't be an issue.

 

There's also a unique thing happening in London whereby vast swathes of the most upmarket areas are being snapped up by rich foreign 'investors'. I recently had a client on board who works on the Battersea Power Station project, he said three recent developments on the riverside had all sold off-plan to Russian, Chinese and Hong Kong clients. The majority of such properties are left empty, they may be bought simply to accrue value at better rates than the banks give. In the meantime British buyers are now being priced out of the market. There's one private road in Sydenham I regularly pick up fares from that is almost exclusively Russian as well as through Dulwich, prices are no object.

Another development they did was a large student accommodation block which, again, was snapped up by the same nationalities. They paid a years rent in advance for their children to study at any of the London universities at around £25k a year. There are many of these being built now in central London, again, locals are priced out. It is creating an imbalance that will have far-reaching effects on what is already a difficult market and these are non EU, so the mixture at both ends of the market is a problem.

It's a free market but is it in OUR best interests?...

 

Are you mad?
In these dangerous times open borders are a huge mistake imo.

 

Unfortunately a completely free market in relation to movement of labour hits the following problem, namely that of language - people tend to move to countries where they have at least a smattering of the local language, or where the learning of that language will be usefull to them. In that sense England will always be attractive to would be migrants - because so many people already know the language, and because learning English opens up more doors than say learning German.

Capitalism has always had a vested interest in the mobility of Labour in that immigration has often had the effect of 'dividing' the working class along ethnic lines rather than those of social class alone. Permanent migration to the USA is often given as a contributary factor to the apparent lack of a genuine worker's party there. The development of a sufficient Marxist class consciousness to foster revolution is much more difficult within a multi cultural society. The advantage to capitalism is that workers will direct their wrath towards the newcomers (immigrants) rather than the system itself. What is so hypocritical of the so called 'Capitalism in one country`nationalism of the Tories was how they were able to assume a monopoly on patriotism in the past whilst at the same time selling Britain's national assets (things which belonged to you and me) off to foreign investors.

 

Ed Balls again making stuff up:

A secret Tory plot to raise VAT
Discredited figures that have been attributed to the IFS
Lots of stuff about what 'those bad Tories' will do
A demand that Conservatives rule out a deal with UKIP

And THAT, gentlemen and ladies, is the Labour Economic Policy ahead of the election. They really have no clue.

 

For the purposes of this running poll, I've moved myself off the fence and into the Lib Dem camp (or as Spitting Image would have put it - into exactly the same place).

They're nearest to my personal views at this stage although there's still a few policies that niggle.

 

I'm not talking about allowing movement of fighting terrorists or stopping security checks, of course not, but on stopping the limitations on peaceful minded people who choose to live their life or part of it, in a different place from where they started it.

 

In that case, we should be leaving the EU as freedom of movement is one of its central tenets, there will be no compromise on it from the Germans in particular.

Of course the expansion of the EU eastwards has brought challenges, but why do you think it has happened? Partly to do with creating a bigger market, but much more I think to release those countries from the grip of Russia. It's old fashioned bloc politics. And a good thing, if the experience of Ukraine is any indicator.

Careful what you wish for Goldie. The UK has a very tender economy, we produce hardly any real things (and those we do make are usually by foreign owned companies) and rely almost totally on the service sector, especially financial services. Government after Government has lobbied in Brussels for the City of London to keep a whole raft of privileges which make it a dominant place to do financial deals. The EU has allowed this to continue. Out of the EU it will face competition from a much bigger economic neighbour which will not want to do it any more favours. A long, probably slowish decline of the City vs keeping out a few immigrants.

The tragedy is that this banker/greed driven recession has stalled economic development across Europe, which has meant that slower/no growth in the East has provoked more emigration. Our relative success in growth has been driven, more than a little, by the immigration we have seen, broadening the gap and creating a further pull for immigrants.

This stuff is more complicated than our politicians, hooked on sound bites and aiming at the lowest common denominator, will ever admit. There are no easy answers, but I'm pretty sure that fear and xenophobia will result in dangerous answers.

 

Do those on here who believe in free movement of people also believe in free movement of Capital ? I find that there are no clear 'left' or 'right' positions on this one. Am I a zenophobe when I object to a tax dodging Russian buying up all the best houses in London ? Free movement of Capital also means that I can move my factory to Rumania if I want - it also means that I can buy houses there, force up the prices beyond what locals can afford. It means that whole areas can be left with houses that nobody is living in (second homes) and where all locals have gone (like some areas of the West Country).

 

Agree. As a non-UK resident but somebody who receives all your TV channels, I can't wait till May 6th and the TV and news programmes return to "normal".

 

I would vote to leave the EU even if I was certain that it would be harmful to us in the long run. I'm not at all convinced that we would struggle outside that corrupt, cock up of an ideal, but I'd happily take the chance.
I do not support unelected bureaucrats governing my Country from afar.

As for immigration, it has undoubtedly enhanced this Country and will continue to do so. However, the average numbers of immigrants year on year has been 30,000 per year. Last year the number was 300,000. This cannot continue. We are a small island and there is only so much room, not to mention the strain on infrastructure etc.