The Prison Monster Versus Flogging!

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PNEawf

Just because the current system doesn't work is no justification for bringing back capital punishment.

As I said, what if it happens to you and you know you're innocent? There are too many examples of miscarriages of justice to bring back CP. Remember the Birmingham six and the Guildford four? That would be 10 innocent people who would be dead.

In order to have 100 per cent trust in CP you have to have 100 per cent faith in the police and the justice system. Can you honestly say that's the case?
 
PNEawf said:
The system we have does not work. Prison is not a deterrent and only serves as a training ground. People will continue to commit crimes as long as the rewards outweigh the consequences. All kinds of bad things happen and if we stop doing things because there is a chance of a bad thing happening then we would have to ban everything.
The risk of innocent people being killed is less than the risk of releasing people who will continue to commit crimes. I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone willing to commit a crime, especially people who do it habitually. Some of these ****s make the lives of hundreds of people a living hell and I have no qualms with executing them.
I would rather kill these people than the murderers, as most murderers will never re-offend. And I would draw a distinction between a date rape that may or may not be a crime and some sick **** who kidnaps, rapes and tortures someone for fun.
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But what has any of that to with executing the innocent?
 
It's easy to be in favour of something when you think it wont affect you.

It's why opinion poll after opinion poll shows car drivers are in favour of cutting congestion but aren't willing to do anything about it themselves. Or why people favour lowering the human population but only if it's someone else, preferably in Africa or Asia (despite the fact that the west uses 10 x the resources that Africans do.)

I bet you any money if you found yourself in a position where, through an unlucky set of circumstances, you found yourself guilty of a serious crime like rape or murder you wouldn't be in favour of the death penalty.
 
They have the death penalty in America. Do they have lower crime rates there?

"**** happens" is not, I'm afraid, the base logic for a legal system. There are other problems with the system. A rich person and a poor person committing the same crime. Who's most likely to go to the chair? Black person versus a white person?

America is a perfect example of why the death penalty does not work.

Anyway, it's never going to happen.
 
We put innocent people in prison and we haven't stopped doing it because we accept that sometimes, "**** happens"
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Yes, but if they're in prison they're still alive and there's a chance that evidence could be found that will prove their innocence. It's a bit late if the evidence turns up five years later and the poor sod is in the ground!

What I'm saying is that if a person is incorrectly imprisoned then there is still a chance that he or she could go free in the future. That can't happen if you kill them.
 
PNE

With the greatest of respect "**** happens" seems to be the main thrust of your argument. You also have a habit of referring to bits of people's arguments that suit you and ignoring the rest.
 
PNEawf said:
I don't disagree. But I would be happy with a system where habitual criminals and people who commit violent crimes (let's adapt) and have concrete evidence against them, not circumstantial are executed.
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Your argument doesn't stand up. In the eyes of the law the Birmingham six had concrete evidence against them as did the Guildford four. If you had your way all 10 of them would be cold in ground.

And habitual criminals. So if someone shop lifts 20 times they should be taken to the chair whereas someone who beats up and old lady once stays alive?

Sorry, but your argument is full of holes.
 
PNEawf said:
No, **** happens is simply my response to your argument that innocents will be affected. Innocents are sent to prison now because **** happens. It is hardly the main thrust to my argument.
I have ignored no part of your argument: If I have please post what I have ignored.
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But what kind of response is that? **** happens? That's what I mean about not arguing your point.

I understand the main thrust to your argument but I am offering up a possible circumstance of your stance. What you are proposing is final. There can be no appeal once the person is dead. There can be no freedom for the person if a miscarriage of justice is found to have taken place. What you are talking about if taking someone's life from them.

I have given you two examples of this happening. There are many, many more. It is not enough to simply say "**** happens". We are talking about people's lives here. I don't like murderers, rapists etc. any more than you do but I simply do not have enough faith in the police or the justice system to support capital punishment.
 
PNEawf said:
How is that full of holes? It is no different from the current system where you are unlikely to go to jail for a 1st offence, and that includes beating up an old lady.

The two cases you refer to were found to be unsound. Many people disagree that any of them were innocent.
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Do you see the bizarre logic in what you've just written?
 
*****philes can't be rehabilitated, proven to re-offend as they think what they are doing is right. So I say the chair is right for them. When someone takes away another person's basic human right, the right to be safe and not live in fear, then they forfeit any rights they have.

I'm not saying 'kill them all', but I am saying that in certain circumstances the death penalty can be the right way to go, IMO. Where it is beyond reasonable doubt, i.e, caught in the act, caught with the evidence etc., then why should we pay thousands of pounds in taxes to keep these people in relative comfort in prison for years on end.
 
StereoTypist said:
- Legalise drugs, from cannabis to heroin
- Have a fairer tax system
- Legalise prostitution
- Pass legislation to stop lawyers/solicitors abusing the system for their own financial gain

Flogging etc. never stopped criminals reoffending in the past and it wont stop them now.
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PNEawf said:
Where do I say that it is full of flaws? I was simply giving an alternative that I felt would reduce crime.
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How is that full of holes? It is no different from the current system where you are unlikely to go to jail for a 1st offence, and that includes beating up an old lady.

The two cases you refer to were found to be unsound. Many people disagree that any of them were innocent
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There.
 
"America is not a perfect example at all. A higher percentage of white murderers are executed than blacks, so that argument goes out of the window. And we are not America, so American social conditions do not apply here anyway."

Sorry PNE, but that stats from 2007 show that Blacks suffer a far higher rate of execution. Whites executed figures were .0008 as against the Black rate of .0035.
 
PNE

You give an example of how the system doesn't work and highlighted the doubts surrounding the two previous cases I cited.

That's the problem with bringing back CP. There is too much scope to go wrong. I'll go back to what I said originally. If it was you who was sentenced to death for a crime you know you didn't commit you wouldn't think it right. I can just see the judge sentencing you to hang and you standing in the court going "oh well, **** happens".

Nah, I don't think so.
 
America is not a perfect example at all. A higher percentage of white murderers are executed than blacks, so that argument goes out of the window. And we are not America, so American social conditions do not apply here anyway.

Sorry PNE, but you have the figures back the front. The execution rate among Whites in 2007 stood at .0008, while that of the Blacks stood at .0035.

Sorry about the reposting PNE, didn't see the post I put up before. Thought it went missing.
 
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