The Politics Thread

Poor ppl apparently scrounging the system, LGBTQ, wokes, muslims, black lives matter, more poor ppl.

Their whole philosophy is divide and rule.

Look over there it's always someone else's fault.

 

Interesting optics from the BBC.
Particularly on World Women's Day!

Maybe Gary would have escaped their wrath had he just smacked Braverman on the conk.

 

I regard Lineker well - on football matters - both as a player and as a pundit. I am less inclined to consider him "very intelligent" - to me has has always seemed at best average. Yes he picked up Spanish and Japanese by living in those countries but if you live and work in a foreign country you ought to be able to pick up at least a modicum of their language - it is rude not to.
He is of course entitled to his opinion - as are you and I - but it is no more valid than any other "joe". As for telling truth to power I think comparing the immigration bill to happenings in Nazi Germany was at best ill considered and is pretty stupid. Not too dissimilar to one certain royal prince who thought it ok to dress in their uniform. It is certainly not just Tories who are offended by his remarks - I am certainly no supporter of that bunch myself - but if he chooses to use an inflammatory comparison he should expect some backlash. His free speech does not deprive others of theirs.

 

I wonder if Ofcom have received a higher than usual number of complaints about Question Time's impartiality this week...?

 

I assume you are referring to this :



Absolutely nothing in her words remotely related to the
concerns/rhetoric//reality that was prevalent in 1930s Germany
regarding immigrants.

 

Also not a good look given she was, you know, wrong about it being a one-off

 

He referred to similarities in language with '30's Germany in his short Tweet which is perfectly reasonable in my opinion.
As regards intelligence, I think that someone who builds a 2nd career after football and creates a strong personal business brand that has grown for more than 2 decades deserves to be credited with above-average intelligence.
Learning the local language should be a prerequisite for all ex-pats if possible, but to achieve that with 2 very disparate languages in short time is impressive.
As regards kickback, others are genuinely entitled to their contrary opinion. The issue is that a) those voices appear intent on attacking his right to comment ('he must apologise' / 'the BBC must sack him' / 'he should stick to football')
b) those same voices appear less inclined to comment or criticise non-politician comments when they support Gov policy or mantra.
c) there is no similar outcry about BBC impartiality when for example it relates to the Chairman arranging an £800k loan for Johnson. Or indeed any criticism from them when Fiona Bruce on QT plays down domestic abuse by Stanley Johnson....

Oh well, its all opinions - and, like arseoles, we've all got one!

 

is "Good heavens, this is beyond awful." the "short"
tweet to which you refer, or do you mean another
(which has not been posted here) ??

 

I tried to find the original comment by Lineker (not the follow up saying "similarities in language with '30's Germany in his short Tweet" that was quoted above) but whether it has been censored or is just my total lack of knowledge of how to use twitter etc I don't know. It was his original comment about Nazis that drew the criticism.
Whether Lineker is Brain of Britain or just daft is irrelevant really as comparing a policy to prevent illegal activity with Nazism is offensive to very many.
Also conflating other people's activities or misdemeanours is strange - do two wrongs make a right? I am not going to leap to the defence of Stanley Johnson, the Chairman of the BBC or anyone else when I am discusssing a comment by Lineker. Lineker was wrong to use a comparison with Nazi Germany pure and simple - but I can't say it ranks in my top 1000 concerns. Why can't people who care about other people's liberty and culture not call out a blatant error of judgement?

 

That's the thing, he didn't mention Nazis.
The "similarity in language" tweet is what everyone's going on about.
His critics have just twisted it so much that everyone thinks there's another tweet now.

He replied to Braverman's statement by calling it awful.
A random twitter user, who has now made their account private, claimed that he was out of order.
He responded to that with the "similarities in language" tweet.
That's it. No mention of Nazis, at all.

It's a bit difficult to find because it's a reply and the comment it was to was deleted:


Most reports aren't linking to it and they're not using the words in it, either.
They're reporting on it without saying what it actually said.

 

Here it is :




So ....

"There is no huge influx. "

The net immigration stats for the UK over the years
beg to differ (even allowing for the Ukraine saga) .

The number arriving per annum as 'dinghy drivers'
appears to be about the same as the number of
UK soldiers who were landed on the Normandie
beaches on "D-day" .


"We take far fewer refugees than other major European countries."

I assume the UK similarly takes in few fewer
illegal migrants than those nations (in total, as
a % of total population etc) .


"n language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the 30s"

The Braverman vid
(I refer the interested to : https://not606.com/threads/the-politics-thread.323088/page-1299#post-16559816 ) .

 

Lineker has said nothing that should worry anyone who employs him

 

< fixed >

 

If that is the case then it appears to be an example of people twisting his words. Nazi is grossly more offensive than 1930's Germany - even if it is still a poor choice of example as it was bound to be taken out of context - but certainly I would not expect it to need apologising for - we all use daft comparisons at times - well perhaps not "all" - but I do.

Shame we do not have a separate thread on the realities of immigration as it is an interesting topic to debate - but the danger I guess is you end up with a host of political based threads

 

In that tweet he is clearly referring to response to something he said earlier - I wish that earlier quote were available.

 

Is it though ??

1930s = 1930-1939.
Nazi regime rule = 1933-39.

So only 3 years out of the decade are where the
Nazis arguably were not the main thing in Germany.

Or is Lineker claiming that the words "used" in
1930-32 (you assume by the Nazis at least,
perhaps the Communist party also) was far worse
than those that came after over the rest of the decade ??

 

The Nazis weren't the only people in Germany in the 1930s, though.
If you were to refer to 2010s UK, people wouldn't automatically assume you meant the Tories.

Lineker was referring to the pre-war Nazis though, in my opinion.
I don't think he's wrong to do so. The rhetoric used has disturbing similarities.
Braverman was challenged on it before after referring to an invasion and she doubled down.
That criticism came from Joan Salter, an 83-year-old who lost her family in the Holocaust.

 

Its an emotive subject for sure,.but doesn't need a separate thread S61, it can run on the Politics thread just fine.
In fact it would be great to have a healthy debate on the subject.
In particular, we could start with the following:
- that the UK actually accepts fewer refugees/ immigrants than most other European countries and what is an appropriate number.
- that the Home Sec and UK Government routinely conflate the total number of displaced persons globally with the number (less than 1%) who are actually trying to come to the UK
- the deliberate misrepresentation of what constitutes an 'illegal' immigrant.
- identify what safe routes there are for any immigrants (who aren't Ukrainian)
- Why the UK Government has to date refused to engage with France in the establishment of assessment centres in France, designed to allow for claims to be assessed and determinations made, which would likely eradicate the 'small boat' problem overnight.
Oh and maybe also touch on why the majority of countries and NGO's consider both the Rwanda scheme and the new legislation to be unlawful.

Interested?

 

"in language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the 30s"

So the Nazis were not the only demographic in Germany, in the 1930s,
using such language ??


"Lineker was referring to the pre-war Nazis though, in my opinion."

He was insinuating the Nazis (which is what most others thought he was) .
I took the "good faith" approach that he was not, but it
becomes immediately evident he has no knowledge whatsoever
of what was being said in 1930s Germany regarding immigrants.


"I don't think he's wrong to do so. The rhetoric used has disturbing similarities.
Braverman was challenged on it before after referring to an invasion and she doubled down."

You say "invasion" .
I refer you to : https://not606.com/threads/the-politics-thread.323088/page-1299#post-16560131
(specifically "D-day" ) .

 

Lineker clearly had in mind the Nazis who were on the rise even before they took power - but sometimes the actual language is key. Avoiding mentioning Nazis even if people associated the era with them seems deliberate. Contrast Ken Livingstone who got into trouble for claiming Hitler supported Zionism