Off Topic The Politics Thread

[GoldhawkRoad]

Surely by bringing up the Swedish situation in connection to a point about the EU referendum you are making the very connection that Nigel Farage wanted voters to make when he brought out his shameful poster during the referendum Goldie? Free movement of labour within the Single Market is a very different thing to refugees coming from the Middle East and Africa. Recent statements from May and Rudd seem to be aimed at the far right in this country.

They are both issues of immigration, but I agree free movement of EU citizens and an influx of Middle Eastern and African migrants bring different problems, Strolls. The EU immigration is mostly about numbers, pressure on local services, undercutting prices of working people and in certain limit cases where the scale of immigration is particularly great, a change in social environment.

But the two are connected. With free movement, if one EU country decides to take in large numbers of migrants (economic as well as refugees) as Sweden and Germany have done, many will obtain citizenship in due course. Then potential troublemakers/extremists will have free movement around the EU states. This hasn't shown up yet as a big problem, because it can take a few years to get citizenship. It's an issue postponed.

 

[rangercol]

Care to be more specific Col?

Didn't you say how wonderful May's conference speech was? Is it bollocks to disagree?

IMO May "gets it".
In her speach, delivered with real conviction and sincerity imo, she advocated a country where your prospects aren't determined by place of birth, what your parents do or where you went to school.
She talked of being hard on big corporations and the obscenely rich, being tough on tax dodging and standing up for the working class.
She's not a privately educated toff like Cameron and doesn't seem scared of a certain amount of state intervention.
May sounds to me to be more in tune with the people of this country than any PM has for a very long time.
I would guess that, if her speach had been made by a Labour leader you would have been lauding it on here.
Of course everything she said could have been a load of made up crap and she didn't mean a word of it. She is a politician after all.
However, I suspect that she has the opportunity to be a genuine one-nation Prime Minister.

 

[KooPeeArr]

IMO May "gets it".
In her speach, delivered with real conviction and sincerity imo, she advocated a country where your prospects aren't determined by place of birth, what your parents do or where you went to school.
She talked of being hard on big corporations and the obscenely rich, being tough on tax dodging and standing up for the working class.
She's not a privately educated toff like Cameron and doesn't seem scared of a certain amount of state intervention.
May sounds to me to be more in tune with the people of this country than any PM has for a very long time.
I would guess that, if her speach had been made by a Labour leader you would have been lauding it on here.
Of course everything she said could have been a load of made up crap and she didn't mean a word of it. She is a politician after all.
However, I suspect that she has the opportunity to be a genuine one-nation Prime Minister.

If that speech had been made by a Labour leader then it would have been consistent with their political position.

May didn't just wander into the wrong convention. She has a been a member of a party with a very different ideology for many years.

I also imagine her constituents and the wider Tory base haven't just been voting Conservative as a long standing protest vote against a weak Labour party leadership.

So therefore it's either a rather abrupt step to the left because her beliefs have changed and she feels comfortable that her party and their voters are of a similar mind or it's a calculated play at nailing the Labour party coffin shut but without any intent behind it.

Basically, she's either an apathetic political chameleon who adopts the most vote worthy politics (might as well if she has no firm views of her own) or a more traditional politician insofar as she uses hollow words to try to win votes.

Either way I can't see who (Labour or Tory) would welcome such a speech rather than treat it with cynicism at best.

 

[Stroller]

IMO May "gets it".
In her speach, delivered with real conviction and sincerity imo, she advocated a country where your prospects aren't determined by place of birth, what your parents do or where you went to school.
She talked of being hard on big corporations and the obscenely rich, being tough on tax dodging and standing up for the working class.
She's not a privately educated toff like Cameron and doesn't seem scared of a certain amount of state intervention.
May sounds to me to be more in tune with the people of this country than any PM has for a very long time.
I would guess that, if her speach had been made by a Labour leader you would have been lauding it on here.
Of course everything she said could have been a load of made up crap and she didn't mean a word of it. She is a politician after all.
However, I suspect that she has the opportunity to be a genuine one-nation Prime Minister.

There was a lot of stuff in her speech that I would welcome if I thought she would deliver on it. If her government does clamp down on tax dodgers (they all say they are going to), does borrow to invest in infrastructure projects (a Labour policy) and does intervene in the markets where necessary, I will approve. But I won't hold my breath. What I found disturbing was the appeal to the far right in the anti-immigrant rhetoric from both May and Rudd.

 

[rangercol]

If that speech had been made by a Labour leader then it would have been consistent with their political position.

May didn't just wander into the wrong convention. She has a been a member of a party with a very different ideology for many years.

I also imagine her constituents and the wider Tory base haven't just been voting Conservative as a long standing protest vote against a weak Labour party leadership.

So therefore it's either a rather abrupt step to the left because her beliefs have changed and she feels comfortable that her party and their voters are of a similar mind or it's a calculated play at nailing the Labour party coffin shut but without any intent behind it.

Basically, she's either an apathetic political chameleon who adopts the most vote worthy politics (might as well if she has no firm views of her own) or a more traditional politician insofar as she uses hollow words to try to win votes.

Either way I can't see who (Labour or Tory) would welcome such a speech rather than treat it with cynicism at best.

There was a lot of stuff in her speech that I would welcome if I thought she would deliver on it. If her government does clamp down on tax dodgers (they all say they are going to), does borrow to invest in infrastructure projects (a Labour policy) and does intervene in the markets where necessary, I will approve. But I won't hold my breath. What I found disturbing was the appeal to the far right in the anti-immigrant rhetoric from both May and Rudd.

Fair enough.
If you treat everything a Tory says with contempt then you are always going to have a cynical view of what they say they believe or will do.
You both may be right and time will tell


One thing......I'd take May over terrorist supporting thugs like those who presently control the labour party and that viewpoint obviously clouds my view of everything they say and do too.

 

[sb_73]

Fair enough.
If you treat everything a Tory says with contempt then you are always going to have a cynical view of what they say they believe or will do.
You both may be right and time will tell


One thing......I'd take May over terrorist supporting thugs like those who presently control the labour party and that viewpoint obviously clouds my view of everything they say and do too.

We are in a US situation now. One candidate (Corbyn/Trump) you really don't want anywhere near leading the country, the other (May/Clinton) you don't want to feel dirty by casting your vote for them. I was willing to give May a chance, and was certainly happier with her than Leadsom or the other Tory leadership candidates, but I have been frankly disturbed by the mixture of indecision and populism we have seen since.

For full disclosure, I can't think of any currently active Tories I don't feel contempt for, but Heseltine and Ken Clarke are ok. I quite like the retired from politics Michael Portillo too. William Hague can be quite funny sometimes.

 

[kiwiqpr]

are the monster raving loony party still about stan
or have they taken over the labour party

 

[rangercol]

We are in a US situation now. One candidate (Corbyn/Trump) you really don't want anywhere near leading the country, the other (May/Clinton) you don't want to feel dirty by casting your vote for them. I was willing to give May a chance, and was certainly happier with her than Leadsom or the other Tory leadership candidates, but I have been frankly disturbed by the mixture of indecision and populism we have seen since.

For full disclosure, I can't think of any currently active Tories I don't feel contempt for, but Heseltine and Ken Clarke are ok. I quite like the retired from politics Michael Portillo too. William Hague can be quite funny sometimes.

We'll never agree.
See you at the football.

 

[sb_73]

are the monster raving loony party still about stan
or have they taken over the labour party

And UKIP. Too mainstream now.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

We are in a US situation now. One candidate (Corbyn/Trump) you really don't want anywhere near leading the country, the other (May/Clinton) you don't want to feel dirty by casting your vote for them. I was willing to give May a chance, and was certainly happier with her than Leadsom or the other Tory leadership candidates, but I have been frankly disturbed by the mixture of indecision and populism we have seen since.

For full disclosure, I can't think of any currently active Tories I don't feel contempt for, but Heseltine and Ken Clarke are ok. I quite like the retired from politics Michael Portillo too. William Hague can be quite funny sometimes.

It seems typical of the current crop of Tory politicians that Hague stepped away from politics shortly before the set of circumstances to which he arguably would be best suited. Likewise Portillo, who from memory was once a loathed right-winger, whose loss of parliamentary seat to Stephen Tripp was much celebrated at the time, only to re-invent himself as a sexually ambivalent trainspotter just when his presence in The House might be more welcomed by the centre-loving electorate. I still believe the Tories missed a trick taking Cameron over Davies, but then Davies did himself little favour by sulking on the backbenches for a decade. I can't get excited by any of them.

 

[Sooperhoop]

If May delivers everything in her speech she'll be in power for a decade, at the moment it's just words which mean nothing without action. In a year's time we'll have a much clearer indication of how she has progressed but without a credible opposition she has every advantage. I suspect she may have more trouble with those in her own party than anything Corbyn and Co can muster...

 

[sb_73]

We'll never agree.
See you at the football.

For further disclosure I can't think of any currently living Labour politicians I feel more than contempt for. Even Alan Johnson has gone way down in my estimation with his supine reaction to what's going on in his party.

 

[durbar2003]

For further disclosure I can't think of any currently living Labour politicians I feel more than contempt for. Even Alan Johnson has gone way down in my estimation with his supine reaction to what's going on in his party.

Oh no, everyone is devastated!

 

[Windom Earle]

It will all be okay as the EU will collapse in the near future.

Or get a lot more stronger and United ? As Uber says it's about hope and the politic looks very poor at the moment perhaps if we all timelined events of this year we may get clues
I have no ideas left really

 

[durbar2003]

How about becoming the 51st State? (guns for everyone)

 

[ELLERS]

The EU will fall to bits because they cannot adapt or change, that is their main problem. They couldn't even keep us in it when we said our people were unhappy! The second biggest economy. People need to stop flapping and scaremongering. Germany is absolutely gutted we have left because now they will need to find more cash to support all those failing economies.
Funnily a hugely respected American economist said we would be better off out of it
I am also glad we have left because they are about to create a Euro Army (something by the way the remain said was b@@@@@@s). Can you imagine leaving our defences to the Spanish/Italians or French?
And to all those who keep saying "what does Brexit mean" It means we have left a dying organisation and ain't going back.
Move on.

 

[Windom Earle]

I got over it all 10 years ago personally as my current lifestyle should show to those who know it on here
I still care when I shouldn't really and feel we are being brought off by speeches in the UK Lets hope at last we get some actual action
The Tories could start by publicaly ripping into their history as could Labour instead of singing over cracks and towing any party line that very few are bothered with

Instead of it's going to get better
Just say we were dreadful in the past

Then make concrete promises against that fresh start

The U.K. Is by far top of league of moaning and doing nothing about it and politics in the UK know this

Time to realise that these bastatds should understand they work us the people ... Anyone think they have in the past . That Corebyn bloke is it? at least looks to be doing that albeit in a daft way

If people can believe a speech from a Tory then expect nothing to really happen . This is the disease I mention which is evident to me

Too many people talk about work in the UK and we can become ineffective , behind and a very lazy nation

The whole thing falls on one diesel strike IMO that's how fragile it really is

 

[Windom Earle]

The EU will fall to bits because they cannot adapt or change, that is their main problem. They couldn't even keep us in it when we said our people were unhappy! The second biggest economy. People need to stop flapping and scaremongering. Germany is absolutely gutted we have left because now they will need to find more cash to support all those failing economies.
Funnily a hugely respected American economist said we would be better off out of it
I am also glad we have left because they are about to create a Euro Army (something by the way the remain said was b@@@@@@s). Can you imagine leaving our defences to the Spanish/Italians or French?
And to all those who keep saying "what does Brexit mean" It means we have left a dying organisation and ain't going back.
Move on.

Foolish statement including the French re defense far superior in every division IMO
I would say you need first hand education there as I have seen heavy

Time to move on re our rep as a fighting force I have a family full of testaments to exactly how ****ed the UK militarily and enforcement really is

 

[sb_73]

In the papers today, all backing up Windom's point about not believing a word.
Government now says it won't be asking companies to publish lists of their foreign workers (about the only thing of substance, along with Article 50 by April next year, I can remember from the Tory fiesta).But still needs to "collect the information".
Priti Patel now says she will spend all of the overseas aid budget, after saying she wouldn't a couple of days ago
3rd runway at Heathrow now not an issue for Boris Johnson, despite his promise to his constituents in Ruislip to lie down in front of the bulldozers if it went ahead
A report commissioned by Theresa May into the handling of immigration and integration, which actually supports her anti immigrant, anti PC conversion, is to be watered down as it criticises the Home Office under her leadership


It has emerged that there are record numbers of bets made by hedge funds on the £ falling much further. Reckoned it will hit $1.10 before the end of next year. Then we will see how the interesting combination of inflation and near zero interest rates benefit 'ordinary working people'.

 

[TootingExcess]

How about becoming the 51st State? (guns for everyone)

What did you make of Trump's performance last night? I get the impression 35% of republicans would probably still vote for Hitler or Gengis Khan on the basis they are not Democrats. New England and California need their own IndyRefs to leave the Federal superstate.