In the South West there is nobody with more than 2 brain cells who would vote Leave, and Essex jokes were just jokes so they wouldn't be that stupid either, I hope.
Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Further to our comments on Sunday, this article in the Guardian shows just where London seems to be heading with dozens of 'projects' under construction along the river...
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-london-luxury-pads-emblematic-housing-crisis
For the most part, Oslo, I am prepared to believe that the majority of those that hold Leave or Remain positions do so on the basis of intelligent and rational thought. Of course, there has to some emotional driver within that provides the platform for whatever conviction one holds. I wouldn't go so far as to accuse those whose opinions differ from my own as lacking brain cells. Small penises perhaps, but not a lack of brain cells.
See what I mean?
A typically sneering attitude towards anyone who dare want to leave the motherland EU.
I can tell you here in the South West the Leave vote is very strong. It's basically how being in the EU affects you. For instance those in the building trade would have strong views on how the influx has had an affect on their daily lives. Likewise if you work for a German, French company you will be voting Remain. Saying anyone voting Leave has just two brain cells or is a bigot/racist as many do is plain daft
That's really arrogant and patronising, Oslo. And it's what many people in the UK have come to expect from unelected bureaucrats that barely leave the rarified air of their lavish EU offices or all expense-paid, first class travel
It's beneficial in purely economic terms, but I don't think you can ignore the societal impact, there are plenty of places where the sheer numbers of productive EU migrants have changed the character of towns (Boston, Lincolnshire, is my favourite example), changed the nature of schools etc, and people clearly don't like it. As I haven't directly experienced or been impacted by these situations, I am reluctant to be too judgemental about it. If I were Brexit I would definitely be leading with immigration, just as the Remain campaign will and should focus on the economy.
On the economy the Institute of Fiscal Studies has come out with its assessment this morning, unsurprisingly the same as every other major economic organisation, Brexit will cost us. A very specific rebuttal of the continual lie of we will get £350m per week back from Brexit, and pointing out the obvious that there can be no 'better' trade deal with the EU than the one we have already. Immediately attacked because they receive some funding from the EU, which conveniently ignores the fact that the IFS also gets funding from HMG and consistently criticises the figures in Government budgets. They receive funding precisely to provide unbiased analysis, if they don't do that they are worthless. They could be criticised on the basis that their economic models are wrong, which given my opinion of economists may well be the case. But not because they are essentially corrupt, which is the core of the allegation.
Redwood was on the Today programme giving the Brexit rebuttal. In a throwaway line, not picked up on by Nick"Tory Boy" Robinson, he said Brexit would mean an end to austerity. Really? Tell me more. Clearly Redwood is no longer a Tory, like Irritable Bowel Smith.
Nice one Col. I score even higher than you for Remain on Identity, much lower on the others, which basically sums up my position neatly, completely committed to the concept and principles, pissed off by the reality.
The media are doing their best to show us the daftest examples of non intelligent and irrational thought in their sound bite 'person on the street' vox pops. In the last couple of days I have seen pro remain students saying it was all about how easily they can travel around Europe, and middle aged (I.e my age) Brexiters giving us the "we didn't fight two world wars to be dictated to by the Germans' line (no, you didn't fight any wars madam) and a woman apparently having an orgasm at the sight of Nigel Farage on a bus. My wife, who is leaning towards Brexit (it's feisty in our house, as neither of us self edit much) just muttered 'Jesus Christ, God help us'. I sincerely hope (and think) that these are unrepresentative examples, but as a fully paid up and practicing member of the liberal elite (but not the establishment!) I find it hard to stop myself sighing.
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I think the point he was making was that, given the IFS has accepted that Brexit would save the UK between £8-10 bn net per annum, this could eliminate austerity. Of course, it's one part of the whole argument for and against Brexit.
One of the bizarre effects of unlimited EU migration is that while, say, Romanians and Bulgarians have an inalienable right to live here, Australians and New Zealanders that want to come, and often have specific and desirable skills, are excluded. Controlled immigration from the EU would enable the UK to tap into resources from its Commonwealth roots - and on a reciprocal basis.
We can still let all Australians and New Zealanders in if we wanted - the EU isn't stopping us Goldie? If they have skills we need, they can come at the moment without too much fuss.
Even if we gave them full rights - they wouldn't reciprocate as they wouldn't want 60 million Britons decamping over there.
If you mean controlling unskilled EU workers so we could get unskilled Australians to come over instead - I really don't think that will happen. I'm sure plenty of uneducated and unskilled "new Commonwealth" migrants would love to come though, if that's who you meant?
Well, that £8-10bn would be spent, presumably, replacing the subsidies that are currently paid via the EU to agriculture, industry, infrastructure etc. I'd agree that it's our own cash that's being recycled via the EU and we might be able to spend it more efficiently and effectively, but I can't see how it would change the fundamental policy of austerity.
Re the Aussies, yep, we always need bar staff. The salaries and workload for skilled jobs are so much better in Australia that the flow of skilled people will be in the opposite direction, as it is now, for the foreseeable future. That's where our doctors are going. Plus why don't we fill these skilled jobs with our own people, everyone seems to have a degree nowadays and don't want to do the jobs that EU migrants do for us.
It's not the EU that's stopping us, Tooting, its our government's own immigration targets. Because we can't control the numbers coming in from the EU - and these are increasing exponentially, the graph heading upwards, because there are areas of the EU with very low living standards (parts of Eastern Europe) or very high youth unemployment (Spain) - we have to cut the numbers coming in from the rest of the world to keep overall numbers as low as possible, but they're still far above government targets.
As to reciprocity with Australia, there are moves afoot from Australia to get free movement of people between the UK and Oz. I heard an official from Australia discussing it this week. Brexit would presumably aid this.
Sure, those doctors that go get a first class training and experience here at taxpayer's expense, and then go for a good salary and quality of outdoor life in Oz. No criticism but fact. But it applies in the reverse, in the sense that Oz doctors and nurses would come over to work for the experience in the top London hospitals and a change of scene. I suspect the same would apply for NZ and Canada too.
Really re free movement with Australia? I'd like that, though it's a bit late for me, and sadly my company's business there is just about as pathetic as it is in the UK, so no chance of a work transfer.
I would like a clear statement from the Brexit campaign on what their picture of a 'good' immigration level and policy is. I don't think anyone is arguing that there should be a complete stop to immigration (though let's not kid ourselves that this view doesn't exist). I think it would also be handy to make some distinctions between immigrants, people who come here to live and presumably gain citizenship, and migrants, who will come over, work and on eventually go home. I seem to remember (but I may be wrong) that the majority (or at least a lot) of people migrating out of the U.K. are in fact EU migrants returning home.
I think that is a massive assumption Goldie, and probably a false one. We are busy recruiting nurses from the Phillipines, and doctors from anywhere (did you see the footage of prayers in the doctors mess at Scarborough Hospital, related to the idiot doctor who joined ISIS? Looked like dozens of Muslim doctors, I doubt they were from the EU). As Tooting says there is nothing to stop Aussie and Kiwi nurses and doctors coming here now if they want to, we obviously need them. But they apparently don't want to, and I don't blame them. There used to be loads of Aussie dentists around when I was younger though.
I don't know how many Oz doctors are coming in at present, but we're not just talking human medical. Our local veterinary surgery likes to recruit Australian. There are Australian lawyers, accountants, bankers etc in the services area that would come and obviously other areas too, and yes, unskilled or trainees. The UK being in the EU makes in more difficult for them for reasons I give in my reply to Tooting.
If you do this with Australia and NZ, would you also be in favour of extending it to other commonwealth countries in Asia and Africa? Just wondering why you quoted both of those commonwealth countries as examples,
I doubt that would be viable for the same reason that there have been problems with huge amounts of immigration into the UK from Eastern Europe. For freedom of movement to work, you need the countries to be of broadly the same economic/wealth status. Otherwise you get disproportionate movement of people from one country to the other.
Not too sure about that. There are over 1m Brits living on the costas in Spain. Has Spain got broadly the same economic and wealth status as the UK? With 50% youth unemployment, I doubt it.