Off Topic The Politics Thread

[finglasqpr]

what's hypocritical about voicing an opinion, 300,000 coming in each year is not sustainable. My parents both came over during the war, I would imagine there was more leaving at that time. My issue is not immigrants, but the sheer number of them.

You're a great man for quoting the figures of people coming in. What about the numbers of Britons going to live in other EU countries? How many would you say there are compared to your 300K per year coming in? In 2014, there were 1.8 million Britons living in other EU countries and 2.3 million EU citizens living in Britain. The actual figures prove that free movement of people IS a two way street.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Yes, the one certainty to emerge from this campaign is that all Tories are liars.

Why single out the Tories? How will Blair and Straw fair in the Chilcot report? If Corbin and Mcdonell aren't lying at the moment, it's because they're not saying anything

What pisses me off is that Cameron and Osbourne have got the whole government/civil service bureaucratic apparatus, together with international favours called in, to crush the Brexit rebellion. The Government Treasury report today was meant to be unbiased, yet when asked why it did not show an "optimistic" option after Brexit, Sajid Javid admitted that this was for the Brexit camp to show - so why pretend the Treasury report is independent?

Cameron would murder the princes in the Tower to get his own way

 

[KooPeeArr]

Another thing I've noticed a lot on this thread is people saying that Cameron wants to stay in to protect his legacy.

Surely the only way to ensure his legacy is to go for the best possible outcome. If the best outcome was a Brexit then that would be a far more outstanding legacy.

Personally, I don't rate him and think he'll end up as a footnote of a generation of politicians who were better at stating what's wrong with others' ideas rather than making principled stands of their own. That's not a party specific condemnation either.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Another thing I've noticed a lot on this thread is people saying that Cameron wants to stay in to protect his legacy.

Surely the only way to ensure his legacy is to go for the best possible outcome. If the best outcome was a Brexit then that would be a far more outstanding legacy.

Personally, I don't rate him and think he'll end up as a footnote of a generation of politicians who were better at stating what's wrong with others' ideas rather than making principled stands of their own. That's not a party specific condemnation either.

Cameron was terrified of being the PM that lost Scotland, and now he's terrified of being responsible for the UK coming out of Europe.

My view:

If there's a Brexit vote, Cameron will be out on his ear the next day - in ignominy, his legacy in tatters having lost the most important argument of his life

If Remain succeed handsomely, Cameron and Osbourne will be masters of all they survey, and there will the Night of the Long Knives when leaders of Brexit (possibly excluding Gove) will be cast into governmental exile

If Remain succeed by a narrow margin, expect Blue on Blue Civil War and Cameron will be glad to get out before 2020 with most of his legacy intact

 

[KooPeeArr]

Cameron was terrified of being the PM that lost Scotland, and now he's terrified of being responsible for the UK coming out of Europe.

My view:

If there's a Brexit vote, Cameron will be out on his ear the next day - in ignominy, his legacy in tatters having lost the most important argument of his life

If Remain succeed handsomely, Cameron and Osbourne will be masters of all they survey, and there will the Night of the Long Knives when leaders of Brexit (possibly excluding Gove) will be cast into governmental exile

If Remain succeed by a narrow margin, expect Blue on Blue Civil War and Cameron will be glad to get out before 2020 with most of his legacy intact

That would at least mean Cameron believes his own scaremongering.

 

[TootingExcess]

Cameron was terrified of being the PM that lost Scotland, and now he's terrified of being responsible for the UK coming out of Europe.

My view:

If there's a Brexit vote, Cameron will be out on his ear the next day - in ignominy, his legacy in tatters having lost the most important argument of his life

If Remain succeed handsomely, Cameron and Osbourne will be masters of all they survey, and there will the Night of the Long Knives when leaders of Brexit (possibly excluding Gove) will be cast into governmental exile

If Remain succeed by a narrow margin, expect Blue on Blue Civil War and Cameron will be glad to get out before 2020 with most of his legacy intact

It's a civil war whichever way you look at it then. However, If it's a brexit then Parliament should be dissolved and the parties can then put forward manifestos as to how we sort out the mess/move forward to utopia.

 

[sb_73]

Why single out the Tories? How will Blair and Straw fair in the Chilcot report? If Corbin and Mcdonell aren't lying at the moment, it's because they're not saying anything

What pisses me off is that Cameron and Osbourne have got the whole government/civil service bureaucratic apparatus, together with international favours called in, to crush the Brexit rebellion. The Government Treasury report today was meant to be unbiased, yet when asked why it did not show an "optimistic" option after Brexit, Sajid Javid admitted that this was for the Brexit camp to show - so why pretend the Treasury report is independent?

Cameron would murder the princes in the Tower to get his own way

Because the Tories are all over the ****ing news engaging in their own bitch fest. Brexiter Dearlove also likely to get it in the neck from Chillcott, but all that **** has happened , the current **** is more important.

Undoubtedly the Remain leadership are exploiting their access to governmental advantages. But it is government policy to remain, so it's hardly a surprise. If they wanted to leave (in which case we would have seen Boris steadfastly pro EU) it would have been the same. Instead of whining about it all the time the Brexiters need to put some of their own lies out there. Oh they already have.

 

[vblockiain]

Yes, the one certainty to emerge from this campaign is that all Tories are liars.


You keep threatening that.

I havent lied to anyone yet but once i have been through the Bilderburg group The Paxman Programme & the crap in the Treasury story book released today i will return to your expected stero-type

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Because the Tories are all over the ****ing news engaging in their own bitch fest. Brexiter Dearlove also likely to get it in the neck from Chillcott, but all that **** has happened , the current **** is more important.

Undoubtedly the Remain leadership are exploiting their access to governmental advantages. But it is government policy to remain, so it's hardly a surprise. If they wanted to leave (in which case we would have seen Boris steadfastly pro EU) it would have been the same. Instead of whining about it all the time the Brexiters need to put some of their own lies out there. Oh they already have.

...and I thought the civil service was meant to be independent. Seems they are integral to Government propaganda. Still, they can take a holiday from Friday when purdah applies...unless Dave and George cheat thereafter. Expect it.

 

[sb_73]

...and I thought the civil service was meant to be independent. Seems they are integral to Government propaganda. Still, they can take a holiday from Friday when purdah applies...unless Dave and George cheat thereafter. Expect it.

I do expect it. They are Tories, after all.

 

[TheBigDipper]

...and I thought the civil service was meant to be independent. Seems they are integral to Government propaganda. Still, they can take a holiday from Friday when purdah applies...unless Dave and George cheat thereafter. Expect it.

Maybe, just maybe, their analysis is unbiased and the unbiased answer just happens to suit the Remain argument. Or maybe, just maybe, knowledge of that unbiased analysis is what persuaded so many MPs to support staying in.

I can dream, can't I?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I do expect it. They are Tories, after all.

...and the politicians from other parties, like Mandelson, Jowell, Hoon, Macshane, Flowers, Laws, Oaten etc are all honest. You're showing your prejudice, Stan

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Maybe, just maybe, their analysis is unbiased and the unbiased answer just happens to suit the Remain argument. Or maybe, just maybe, knowledge of that unbiased analysis is what persuaded so many MPs to support staying in.

I can dream, can't I?

See my post 1201, BD - the Remain side have admitted that they have deliberately omitted the "optimistic option" from this Treasury Report because they don't want to give fuel to the Brexit fire. The report cannot thus be fairly balanced. It's like a legal submission in a civil trial - one sided and essentially jaundiced

 

[sb_73]

...and the politicians from other parties, like Mandelson, Jowell, Hoon, Macshane, Flowers, Laws, Oaten etc are all honest. You're showing your prejudice, Stan

No, I'm trying an emotional approach, which apparently convinces people. Fact is that the only politicians who matter are those in the limelight today, who all happen to be Tories. As they don't seem to care what they say about each other, why should I hold back? Bunch of ****wits.

 

[sb_73]

See my post 1201, BD - the Remain side have admitted that they have deliberately omitted the "optimistic option" from this Treasury Report because they don't want to give fuel to the Brexit fire. The report cannot thus be fairly balanced. It's like a legal submission in a civil trial - one sided and essentially jaundiced

But even if it was accepted as fair and balanced you wouldn't be changing your mind I suspect, so who cares?

 

[cor blymie]

You're a great man for quoting the figures of people coming in. What about the numbers of Britons going to live in other EU countries? How many would you say there are compared to your 300K per year coming in? In 2014, there were 1.8 million Britons living in other EU countries and 2.3 million EU citizens living in Britain. The actual figures prove that free movement of people IS a two way street.

for 23 of the countries it's very much a one way street. Is that possibly right, parts of Dublin are 80% foreign born?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

But even if it was accepted as fair and balanced you wouldn't be changing your mind I suspect, so who cares?

My mind may be made up, but there are several million undecided voters (mainly women, apparently) who would benefit from a fair report from the Cameron government on such a vital matter

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

No, I'm trying an emotional approach, which apparently convinces people. Fact is that the only politicians who matter are those in the limelight today, who all happen to be Tories. As they don't seem to care what they say about each other, why should I hold back? Bunch of ****wits.

Agree with the first bit. It's Dave and George that are driving the dishonesty. Most other Remainers are keeping their heads down. When did we last hear a peep from Theresa May for example? She's Home Secretary, for Godsake

I don't see the same dishonesty in the Leave side, though Boris does get carried away occasionally in his personal spat with his old *** at Eton

 

[finglasqpr]

for 23 of the countries it's very much a one way street. Is that possibly right, parts of Dublin are 80% foreign born?

As I said, there is no point discussing the situation over here with somebody with such a closed mind and somebody who knows absolutely nothing about the subject. However I will say that on the whole we are very pro-European,

 

[TheBigDipper]

See my post 1201, BD - the Remain side have admitted that they have deliberately omitted the "optimistic option" from this Treasury Report because they don't want to give fuel to the Brexit fire. The report cannot thus be fairly balanced. It's like a legal submission in a civil trial - one sided and essentially jaundiced

I don't expect much from either side, TBH. Save me chasing this down for myself, would you?

Either
1. The Treasury report contained an optimistic section but the Remain side omitted it from their summary when discussing it (which would mean the report isn't biased, just the way one side quoted from it)
Or
2. The Treasury report never had an optimistic section because Osborne or one of his underlings told them not to find an optimistic side.

Do you know which?