Off Topic The Politics Thread

[GoldhawkRoad]

...we continue to grow, aided by the very association of countries that you want us to leave, because Britain as a nation would have displayed faith in the EU.

...and what when the Eurozone is functioning, and we are outside it? Of course we'd be in competition if we vote out. The difference if we stay in, is that we will be competing on terms that our competitors, the Eurozone, control.

I don't mind you telling me I'm wrong, so long as you don't mind me telling you you're naive!

 

[cor blymie]

My family / work / social circle is around 70/30 in favour of remaining.

You said that 'they only take the jobs the Brits don't want to do'.

Are you saying no British person wants to be a doctor, or a nurse, or a firefighter, or a police officer, or work in finance, or IT, or any other job? If you are insisting on saying that there are jobs British people don't want to do, then what would they be? I gave waiting, bar work and building as examples of the type of job your original post implied. Feel free to spell out exactly what jobs only go to EU nationals because 'Brits don't want them'...

And whatever way you paint the situation with this as-yet-unidentified person in Chard, they declined the job. You wrote as if they were not even given the chance due to a lack of language skills unrelated to the job. That's now been shown not to be the case by your own admission.

no Chaz, I didn't say that, the British Government said they were only doing the jobs the British didn't want to do. A lie, just like the lie only 15,000 would come over in a year

 

[TWGWTDT]

That response sadly shows a lack of thought and knowledge of the issues.

Firstly, you're telling me that the guy declined the job. That means he was offered the job, or would have been offered, but HE said no. not that he was 'told he needed to speak polish to get the job'. VERY different thing.

As for the hundreds of thousands, we're not in Schengen and have as much control of our borders now as we will in the event of an exit vote. So if you think suddenly we'll become a fortress if we leave, again it shows a lack of understanding that's not a little frightening.

No comment on the fact that it's not all waiters and bar staff? Of course, there would not be any response that doesn't agree with my post, because it's true.

And if you look back over the entire thread, I've said time and again that ALL sides are trading on fear. I'm just picking out those three in this case because they are peddling the very soundbites that you are swallowing.

So no - not patronising, but then again you appear to have made up your mind so I very much doubt there's any mileage in trying to explain stuff further.

I agree all sides are trading on fear but one side is clearly trading on hope and the thin air of a ten year plan that just doesn't add up
There are some clear facts here about trade deals and rules
Only the UK exit twats can announce that they intend to invent new rules that 506 million people over the European states will accept
Then of course you have to drill down on what the deals maybe for?
You then have to ask who exactly will be in charge of the U.K. when business washes it's hands of the idiot UK government

 

[Chaz]

no Chaz, I didn't say that, the British Government said they were only doing the jobs the British didn't want to do. A lie, just like the lie only 15,000 would come over in a year

Just as - if you go back and look - I didn't say that you mentioned waiters, builders and bar staff. I mentioned them in a comment that not all migrant workers become those workers.

A little bit of thought into what you say I said would be useful, much as a little bit of thought about the issues would be useful for everyone.

 

[Chaz]

...and what when the Eurozone is functioning, and we are outside it? Of course we'd be in competition if we vote out. The difference if we stay in, is that we will be competing on terms that our competitors, the Eurozone, control.

I don't mind you telling me I'm wrong, so long as you don't mind me telling you you're naive!

The Eurozone will only function properly when there's a United States of Europe, with full political, economic and fiscal integration. Until then, we're safe from that scenario. And that won't happen because the Germans and French don't want it. So we're fine as we are.

What you term naive, I read as practical. Semantics, I know, but there you go...

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

The Eurozone will only function properly when there's a United States of Europe, with full political, economic and fiscal integration. Until then, we're safe from that scenario. And that won't happen because the Germans and French don't want it. So we're fine as we are.

What you term naive, I read as practical. Semantics, I know, but there you go...

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, Chaz, but the Germans in particular do very much want fiscal integration in the Eurozone. The view is that another Greece-type crisis could occur without it. The mood in the Eurozone is to speed towards the full integration you describe - at the fastest possible pace. Quite a few Remainians recognise this and are saying, we'll remain for now, but we expect to have to come out in the next 10 years. This is why a REMAIN vote in June doesn't take anyone very far.

 

[TheBigDipper]

no, the way I see it is those foreign nationals in this country and working, nothing changes. The point I was making was, the British public were repeatedly told the new arrivals were only doing the jobs the native population didn't want to do. That was clearly a lie. Everything else you mention didn't come from me

OK, understood. I don't want to misquote you or anyone else. I'm just trying to get the issues raised so we can see if any of them are actually solved by the vote, if it makes things worse or just different without being worse.

I believe you're going to vote "Out". Am I correct? If that is so, would your primary reason be that the public has been lied to (as you say) about the fact that new EU migrants are only doing the jobs that the natives don't want to do? You are convinced that is not the case (and I don't intend to disagree with you - I think they are doing jobs that natives also want to do). Is it the fact itself that means you'll vote "Out" or the fact it was a lie?

 

[QPR999]

as a matter of interest, those closest to you, friends, family, work collegues, blokes down the pub, if you had a poll among them, who would come out on top. Remain or Leave. Down here in leafy Devon/Dorset it be a landslide vote for leave (genuinely)

Outside of this forum I don't know anyone who wants to stay in.

 

[TheBigDipper]

as a matter of interest, those closest to you, friends, family, work collegues, blokes down the pub, if you had a poll among them, who would come out on top. Remain or Leave. Down here in leafy Devon/Dorset it be a landslide vote for leave (genuinely)

I do live in Dorset these days. You're probably correct. They're mainly people aged 50+ with little exposure to other cultures - even European ones.

 

[TheBigDipper]

Outside of this forum I don't know anyone who wants to stay in.

Broaden your circle. They exist everywhere...

 

[sb_73]

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, Chaz, but the Germans in particular do very much want fiscal integration in the Eurozone. The view is that another Greece-type crisis could occur without it. The mood in the Eurozone is to speed towards the full integration you describe - at the fastest possible pace. Quite a few Remainians recognise this and are saying, we'll remain for now, but we expect to have to come out in the next 10 years. This is why a REMAIN vote in June doesn't take anyone very far.

Agree, though I don't think the momentum within Europe is quite that strong. If the Brexit campaign was using this argument I'd be listening closely. I don't have a problem with further integration and it's necessary for the euro to work, but I can't see the UK joining in. We have this horrible Cameron designed half way house, forever on the periphery.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Agree, though I don't think the momentum within Europe is quite that strong. If the Brexit campaign was using this argument I'd be listening closely. I don't have a problem with further integration and it's necessary for the euro to work, but I can't see the UK joining in. We have this horrible Cameron designed half way house, forever on the periphery.

Germany's going to have to drag the others with it. There could be some delay. Agree about Cameron's uncomfortable compromise. Ultimately, we'll be out or in the Euro. There won't be a viable alternative. It is arguable I suppose that if we stay in, in June, and the Eurozone then moves away from the UK and Denmark, the Eurozone may be prepared to give more favourable leave options re the single market, if the UK and Denmark want away .

 

[cor blymie]

OK, understood. I don't want to misquote you or anyone else. I'm just trying to get the issues raised so we can see if any of them are actually solved by the vote, if it makes things worse or just different without being worse.

I believe you're going to vote "Out". Am I correct? If that is so, would your primary reason be that the public has been lied to (as you say) about the fact that new EU migrants are only doing the jobs that the natives don't want to do? You are convinced that is not the case (and I don't intend to disagree with you - I think they are doing jobs that natives also want to do). Is it the fact itself that means you'll vote "Out" or the fact it was a lie?

just too many people coming in full stop, burden on the NHS, housing, schools, transport, jobs, everything. Reason I left London, when you have 15 living in a 3 bedroom house something has to give, it was me. Interesting you are down in Dorset too, although I'm just inside Devon. You are right, the out vote has a lot of 50+ supporters (me) but not that Dorset folk have never met any other cultures. Half the population of Lyme for instance are ex city dwellers. I've noticed the NFU are backing the remain side, yet a lot of the local farmers here voted UKIP in the European MEP elections last year. Very interesting couple of months ahead, does surprise me the apathy by the young though, it's their future at stake and they should vote one way or the other. This vote really will affect them

 

[sb_73]

just too many people coming in full stop, burden on the NHS, housing, schools, transport, jobs, everything. Reason I left London, when you have 15 living in a 3 bedroom house something has to give, it was me. Interesting you are down in Dorset too, although I'm just inside Devon. You are right, the out vote has a lot of 50+ supporters (me) but not that Dorset folk have never met any other cultures. Half the population of Lyme for instance are ex city dwellers. I've noticed the NFU are backing the remain side, yet a lot of the local farmers here voted UKIP in the European MEP elections last year. Very interesting couple of months ahead, does surprise me the apathy by the young though, it's their future at stake and they should vote one way or the other. This vote really will affect them

Farmers seem really split by region. Some (for example in Northern Ireland) get half their income from the EU, would probably need a guarantee that these would be maintained post Brexit, others (presumably those down your way) hate the bureaucracy.

Was surprised to learn that my 20 year old lad, who showed no interest in voting in the general or local elections and has no time for party political affiliations, is very keen to vote in the referendum and would like more of them. Have to confess I'll be passing up the opportunity to choose our local police and crime commissioner.

 

[Tramore Ranger]

On the radio the other day a journalist from The Times was interviewed saying that it is becoming increasingly clear that the voters are becoming split along age lines, the over 50's in favour of leaving, with the younger generation 25 and under more likely to vote in, that leaves a huge gap that need convincing one way or t'other.......however he added it also depends on things like the weather on voting day as to whether or not the younger generation can be bothered to vote and that could mean that the Brexit happens almost by accident as the older generations will vote come what may......

 

[cor blymie]

this really is a issue the young should vote in, showing my age, but the 1975 in/out vote was the first I was eligible to vote in. I voted out then and am even more anti-EU today

 

[sb_73]

I see the National Union of Students has elected a black Muslim woman president. Not gay or transgender though, I'm sure the press would have shared that. Judging by reports she will hardly be helpful in calming the feverish orgy of offence taking and censorship underway on university campuses.

One day, long after I am dead, this news might be reported without reference to the persons race, religion or gender. Because we will all be grey-pink hermaphrodite atheists, hooray!

 

[rangercol]

That's a good question in regard to EU immigration and one that the Brexit campaign leaders should be able to answer. My understanding from Gove yesterday was that they will not accept free movement of people in any kind of trade deal. That could keep new arrivals out. We already have as much power as we will ever have in keeping non EU immigrants out. It's the ones who are already here that are perceived as the problem. So what is the position on these people? Stay, stay if you are in certain jobs and pay a lot of tax, stay if you have been here for xx years, please leave as you are swamping our communities and our education, health and social care systems? The trade deal stuff is necessarily difficult to predict, but this should be very easy to have a firm position on.

Even though he is a QPR fan I doubt Gove will respond to this, so if there is anyone who knows what the position is (The Vote Leave campaign brochure only has two short paragraphs on immigration, does not mention this area. The Grassroots Out campaign website has nothing on any of the issues, just a description of the organisation and how to join/ donate to it) or would like to share their view I would be interested. I promise to try not to respond in a pompous liberal elitist way.

That would be nice.

 

[rangercol]

On the radio the other day a journalist from The Times was interviewed saying that it is becoming increasingly clear that the voters are becoming split along age lines, the over 50's in favour of leaving, with the younger generation 25 and under more likely to vote in, that leaves a huge gap that need convincing one way or t'other.......however he added it also depends on things like the weather on voting day as to whether or not the younger generation can be bothered to vote and that could mean that the Brexit happens almost by accident as the older generations will vote come what may......

Yep, which is why i said I hope it pisses down on election day.

 

[sb_73]

That would be nice.

Got an answer to the question Col?