Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Stroller]

So the Trump bandwagon has lost a wheel. Good. Meanwhile Sanders is a very strong challenger to Clinton for the Democratic nomination. I'd love him to win, but doubt that he could win the main prize. Remind you of anyone?

This is funny.

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[sb_73]

So the Trump bandwagon has lost a wheel. Good. Meanwhile Sanders is a very strong challenger to Clinton for the Democratic nomination. I'd love him to win, but doubt that he could win the main prize. Remind you of anyone?

This is funny.

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It's a nightmare choice for many Americans. Talked a bit about it last week to my colleagues in the US - they are all well educated, largely intelligent people, mainly, in US terms, centrists - pretty socially liberal, avowed capitalists (it's hard to express how firmly free enterprise and self reliance is hard wired into the American middle class). Most are moderate Republicans, some are moderate Democrats. They despise Trump. The visceral (and in my view justified) distrust of Clinton is huge. Sanders is respected for his values (despite his claims he is not a democratic socialist, he doesn't support public ownership of anything, pretty key for socialism) but not as a President. A 'none of the above' box would be welcome at the moment.

I also learned a bit about the primary process, which is incredibly tactical. You can register as either a democrat or a republican (but not both) and take part whatever your political affiliations. So many Republicans join Democrat primaries and vice versa to try and get the most acceptable opposition candidate for them, or just for mischief, even if they don't intend to vote for them in the real election. A kind of insurance policy. May account for Rubio's strong showing in Iowa. It might be claimed that the same thing happened for Corbyn, a bunch of people with no interest or roots in the Labour Party got him elected.

I'll guess at a Clinton v Rubio election.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

It's a nightmare choice for many Americans. Talked a bit about it last week to my colleagues in the US - they are all well educated, largely intelligent people, mainly, in US terms, centrists - pretty socially liberal, avowed capitalists (it's hard to express how firmly free enterprise and self reliance is hard wired into the American middle class). Most are moderate Republicans, some are moderate Democrats. They despise Trump. The visceral (and in my view justified) distrust of Clinton is huge. Sanders is respected for his values (despite his claims he is not a democratic socialist, he doesn't support public ownership of anything, pretty key for socialism) but not as a President. A 'none of the above' box would be welcome at the moment.

I also learned a bit about the primary process, which is incredibly tactical. You can register as either a democrat or a republican (but not both) and take part whatever your political affiliations. So many Republicans join Democrat primaries and vice versa to try and get the most acceptable opposition candidate for them, or just for mischief, even if they don't intend to vote for them in the real election. A kind of insurance policy. May account for Rubio's strong showing in Iowa. It might be claimed that the same thing happened for Corbyn, a bunch of people with no interest or roots in the Labour Party got him elected.

I'll guess at a Clinton v Rubio election.

Insightful observations, Stan. I'll have to learn a bit more about Bernie Sanders and Marco Rubio. With the US presidential pre-election stuff running until November, the EU referendum likely in June, and the migration crisis worsening (Christ knows what it will be like when the weather improves), what an intense political summer we have ahead

 

[cor blymie]

Cameron, just like Chamberlain, comes back with f-all. I'm voting out, who'll join me

 

[rangercol]

So Cameron claims to have achieved a deal with the EU.
What a complete smokescreen.
So we now can limit immigration and benefits for migrants, but only if the EU agree. virtually nothing has changed.
My fear is that people will believe this rubbish and vote for the status quo.
June will bring the most important election of my lifetime for me.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Cameron, just like Chamberlain, comes back with f-all. I'm voting out, who'll join me

I'm voting out. Cameron's brought back nothing and is now using smoke and mirrors to rig the vote. Sounds like most of his cabinet will play safe for the sake of their careers and support the PM.

We need a big beast to bring the OUT OF EU campaign together. Farage divides, and Chris Grayling...well, he's a bit weak

Liam Fox is going up in my opinion but he's not a front man.

My hope is that, come the vote, the IN's will be mostly apathetic (who can honestly get excited about the expensive, unaccountable, indecisive, undemocratic shambles that is the EU) and may not turn out. The OUT's will queue through the night if necessary to get their voice heard! It will be the last chance in their lifetime, although I expect that if the vote is IN and immigration is not controlled, UKIP's support will rise, as, sadly, will support for the far right

 

[Chaz]

.

 

[Wurzel Gummidge;]

Cameron is taking us to hell in a ahandcark. When i was a young boy growin up in Britsol it used to always be English people but now its full of Bangmaleshi's. There are to many Muslims. How can we cope? We used to skip home from school and old Mr Ackerman who owned the drapers at top of the st woud give us a farthing each so we could get some boiled sweets from Mrs Beckinsdales corner shop. We darent tell our parents!!! Now all thats theyre is smelly kebabs and a Rasta head shop. Its ever so sad
I wish too go back to the old times with ahappy english people and no foreing types but I fear Cameron does not care for our lifestyle. Politicians dont care for us anymore. The country is ruined

 

[cor blymie]

Cameron is taking us to hell in a ahandcark. When i was a young boy growin up in Britsol it used to always be English people but now its full of Bangmaleshi's. There are to many Muslims. How can we cope? We used to skip home from school and old Mr Ackerman who owned the drapers at top of the st woud give us a farthing each so we could get some boiled sweets from Mrs Beckinsdales corner shop. We darent tell our parents!!! Now all thats theyre is smelly kebabs and a Rasta head shop. Its ever so sad
I wish too go back to the old times with ahappy english people and no foreing types but I fear Cameron does not care for our lifestyle. Politicians dont care for us anymore. The country is ruined

yawn

 

[sb_73]

Cameron is taking us to hell in a ahandcark. When i was a young boy growin up in Britsol it used to always be English people but now its full of Bangmaleshi's. There are to many Muslims. How can we cope? We used to skip home from school and old Mr Ackerman who owned the drapers at top of the st woud give us a farthing each so we could get some boiled sweets from Mrs Beckinsdales corner shop. We darent tell our parents!!! Now all thats theyre is smelly kebabs and a Rasta head shop. Its ever so sad
I wish too go back to the old times with ahappy english people and no foreing types but I fear Cameron does not care for our lifestyle. Politicians dont care for us anymore. The country is ruined

Are you Ted's brother? A farthing? Pull the other one.

I'm voting out. Cameron's brought back nothing and is now using smoke and mirrors to rig the vote. Sounds like most of his cabinet will play safe for the sake of their careers and support the PM.

We need a big beast to bring the OUT OF EU campaign together. Farage divides, and Chris Grayling...well, he's a bit weak

Liam Fox is going up in my opinion but he's not a front man.

My hope is that, come the vote, the IN's will be mostly apathetic (who can honestly get excited about the expensive, unaccountable, indecisive, undemocratic shambles that is the EU) and may not turn out. The OUT's will queue through the night if necessary to get their voice heard! It will be the last chance in their lifetime, although I expect that if the vote is IN and immigration is not controlled, UKIP's support will rise, as, sadly, will support for the far right

Heard on the radio this morning that just over a third of the electorate want to stay in whatever, just under a third want out whatever and a third are there to be won. As you say a lot will depend on turnout and how the rhetoric plays out. I haven't seen the 'deal' yet, but it was never going to satisfy the out camp, because nothing but leaving will. Plus, of course, an 'in' vote won't change the incredibly tedious bleating of the 'out' politicos.

I doubt many on here will believe this but I don't know how I'll vote. The concept and principle of the EU I fully support, and would be happy with 100% integration. In theory. But the execution and practice has been shockingly bad in some things - the €, bureaucracy, over rapid expansion etc. And I just feel that there is something in what's left of the British, or probably English, psyche which is fundamentally unsuited to this kind of union, and it may be better psychologically if not economically for us to get out. Probably the key thing stopping me putting my X in the 'out' box is the hideousness of some of the people urging me to vote out. Corbyn, of course, like Tony Benn before him, is at heart a little Englander. I'd like to see him on a platform with Farage.

Col's position on this has, for me, always been the most coherent and honourable. It's a matter of sovereignty. If national self determination is important to you, you have to vote out. It isn't for me, but the principle is clear and worth debating.

 

[QPR999]

Cameron is taking us to hell in a ahandcark. When i was a young boy growin up in Britsol it used to always be English people but now its full of Bangmaleshi's. There are to many Muslims. How can we cope? We used to skip home from school and old Mr Ackerman who owned the drapers at top of the st woud give us a farthing each so we could get some boiled sweets from Mrs Beckinsdales corner shop. We darent tell our parents!!! Now all thats theyre is smelly kebabs and a Rasta head shop. Its ever so sad
I wish too go back to the old times with ahappy english people and no foreing types but I fear Cameron does not care for our lifestyle. Politicians dont care for us anymore. The country is ruined

Swords, you're back. I take it you're missing us.

 

[finglasqpr]

Meanwhile, over this side of the Irish sea, Enda is going to the Park tomorrow to dissolve the parliament and announce a general election for Friday 26th February, Don't expect it will get much coverage over your way but it is a very important election for this country. If we choose the wrong government, we could be back where we were a few years ago. The new government could be any shade imaginable. Even Sinn Fein are riding high in the polls. Taoiseach Gerry anyone?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Are you Ted's brother? A farthing? Pull the other one.

Heard on the radio this morning that just over a third of the electorate want to stay in whatever, just under a third want out whatever and a third are there to be won. As you say a lot will depend on turnout and how the rhetoric plays out. I haven't seen the 'deal' yet, but it was never going to satisfy the out camp, because nothing but leaving will. Plus, of course, an 'in' vote won't change the incredibly tedious bleating of the 'out' politicos.

I doubt many on here will believe this but I don't know how I'll vote. The concept and principle of the EU I fully support, and would be happy with 100% integration. In theory. But the execution and practice has been shockingly bad in some things - the €, bureaucracy, over rapid expansion etc. And I just feel that there is something in what's left of the British, or probably English, psyche which is fundamentally unsuited to this kind of union, and it may be better psychologically if not economically for us to get out. Probably the key thing stopping me putting my X in the 'out' box is the hideousness of some of the people urging me to vote out. Corbyn, of course, like Tony Benn before him, is at heart a little Englander. I'd like to see him on a platform with Farage.

Col's position on this has, for me, always been the most coherent and honourable. It's a matter of sovereignty. If national self determination is important to you, you have to vote out. It isn't for me, but the principle is clear and worth debating.

What was interesting for me tonight was hearing a spokesman for France that is grumbling that the UK may be a brake on integration progress in the Euro. What she said was when an outsider (meaning the UK) seeks to interfere with members of a family (meaning the Euro countries) it is unacceptable.

That is telling. The power in the EU will be the 19 country Euro family, led by Germany. The remaining 9 countries incl the UK will have little influence and increasingly will be bound by laws it does not make

 

[sb_73]

Swords, you're back. I take it you're missing us.

Like the Scarlet Pimpernel, he was here and now he's gone........

Stuff gleaned from the Times this morning.......

Having now read the EU stuff I can't imagine anyone changing their mind from out to in based on that. Not sure how relevant the effort is anyway.

Apparently we are at our lowest ebb with life between the ages of 50 and 54, and continue to be pissed off until we are 69. Superficially bad news, but having just come through the 'low zone' it wasn't that bad. Not bad at all in fact.

In 1599 the King of Burma apparently laughed himself to death on hearing that Venice was a republic. I find this quite brilliant and hope it's true.

 

[qprbeth]

In 1599 the King of Burma apparently laughed himself to death on hearing that Venice was a republic. I find this quite brilliant and hope it's true.

Sorry Stan, it is depressingnoot true ....Venice is NOT a republic ...sad times indeed

 

[sb_73]

Sorry Stan, it is depressingnoot true ....Venice is NOT a republic ...sad times indeed

Well, the Doge was elected for life, albeit by the city's aristocracy, so it certainly wasn't a true monarchy and it balanced the Doges power through requiring him to be in agreement with the Major Council (aristocrats only). And it called itself the Serene Republic of Venice. I reckon that was enough for an absolute, unfettered, monarch to find amusing. If true. And Venice is certainly part of a monarchy free Republic now, the Italians kicked their King out after WW2.

 

[qprbeth]

Hi Stan...Sorry to reign on your parade...but I have become fascinated by your story...so done a little research...the story goes

In 1599, the Burmese king Nanda Bayin died an unusual death. He laughed when he was informed “by a visiting Italian merchant, that Venice was a free state without a king”. He laughed so hard that his lungs burst, just like the frog who died singing a bit too loudly.


However there is a question on the whole citation...and it appears it as an urban (or equivalent Burmese word) myth...because Nanda was still alive a couple of years later when he was assinated Natshinnaung ( a rebellious military leader and poet).


In 1600, Nanda along with his chief queen Hanthawaddy Mibaya returned to his birth city of Toungoo. They treated well there. But Nanda's presence at the palace was not welcomed by Natshinnaung, the heir-apparent of Toungoo. Natshinnaung intensely disliked Nanda because the fallen king had once denied Natshinnaung's request for a marriage to the love of his life, Yaza Datu Kalaya, the widow of Mingyi Swa. When the Siamese forces came to lay siege to Toungoo in April 1600, demanding Minye Thihathu to give up the fallen king, the 21-year-old Natshinnaung urged his father to give Nanda up.[92] But the father refused, knowing that agreeing to Naresuan's symbolic demand would be seen as a sign of submission to the Siamese king.[93]

Even after the Siamese retreated, Natshinnaung ( a rebellious military leader and poet) continued to look for an opportunity to remove Nanda. On the night of 30 November [O.S. 20 November] 1600, the prince assassinated the fallen king. Minye Thihathu was extremely displeased with his son's action, and ordered a respectful cremation ceremony for his cousin. He also kept the dowager queen with her attendants at the palace.

So no...probably not true...that has stopped you giggling...my mission today is complete

 

[sb_73]

Hi Stan...Sorry to reign on your parade...but I have become fascinated by your story...so done a little research...the story goes

In 1599, the Burmese king Nanda Bayin died an unusual death. He laughed when he was informed “by a visiting Italian merchant, that Venice was a free state without a king”. He laughed so hard that his lungs burst, just like the frog who died singing a bit too loudly.


However there is a question on the whole citation...and it appears it as an urban (or equivalent Burmese word) myth...because Nanda was still alive a couple of years later when he was assinated Natshinnaung ( a rebellious military leader and poet).


In 1600, Nanda along with his chief queen Hanthawaddy Mibaya returned to his birth city of Toungoo. They treated well there. But Nanda's presence at the palace was not welcomed by Natshinnaung, the heir-apparent of Toungoo. Natshinnaung intensely disliked Nanda because the fallen king had once denied Natshinnaung's request for a marriage to the love of his life, Yaza Datu Kalaya, the widow of Mingyi Swa. When the Siamese forces came to lay siege to Toungoo in April 1600, demanding Minye Thihathu to give up the fallen king, the 21-year-old Natshinnaung urged his father to give Nanda up.[92] But the father refused, knowing that agreeing to Naresuan's symbolic demand would be seen as a sign of submission to the Siamese king.[93]

Even after the Siamese retreated, Natshinnaung ( a rebellious military leader and poet) continued to look for an opportunity to remove Nanda. On the night of 30 November [O.S. 20 November] 1600, the prince assassinated the fallen king. Minye Thihathu was extremely displeased with his son's action, and ordered a respectful cremation ceremony for his cousin. He also kept the dowager queen with her attendants at the palace.

So no...probably not true...that has stopped you giggling...my mission today is complete

You wouldn't let it lie would you? Do you at least concede that Venice was a type of republic, though not really what we call a republic today? Actually the image is so powerful and funny that it's veracity has now become an irrelevance to me. Fortunately, with a QI elf like you around.........if it wasn't for work I would now be seeking documented examples of people laughing themselves to death. And singing frogs. Perhaps later.

 

[Chaz]

You wouldn't let it lie would you? Do you at least concede that Venice was a type of republic, though not really what we call a republic today? Actually the image is so powerful and funny that it's veracity has now become an irrelevance to me. Fortunately, with a QI elf like you around.........if it wasn't for work I would now be seeking documented examples of people laughing themselves to death. And singing frogs. Perhaps later.

From that fount of all knowledge : wikipedia:

The Republic of Venice was a major maritime power during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and a staging area for the Crusades and the Battle of Lepanto, as well as a very important center of commerce (especially silk, grain, and spice) and art in the 13th century up to the end of the 17th century. This made Venice a wealthy city throughout most of its history.[5] It is also known for its several important artistic movements, especially the Renaissance period. After the Napoleonic Wars and the Congress of Vienna, the Republic was annexed by the Austrian Empire, until it became part of the Kingdom of Italy in 1866, following a referendum held as a result of the Third Italian War of Independence.

 

[TheBigDipper]

The EU is an imperfect concept worth continuing with and refining from the inside. I'm much more comfortable being a European alongside my neighbours than I am with the idea of the UK trying to make its way alone.

There are people who wish it were like it used to be, when Brits ruled a significant proportion of the world through military might and controlled the economic wealth that came from it. I cannot see how those days will ever return. It's disingenuous of some politicians to suggest they might, if we were only freed from "this tyranny of the EU". Making our way in the world without being part of the EU will be very lonely and without much influence to make others consider our point of view.

Please, someone who wants us to leave the EU, tell me what the UK will look like if we do and why it's a good thing. I only hear what's wrong with the EU from you, not what the outcome would be if we left.