Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Sooperhoop]

What I think is most likely to swing the vote towards staying in - or pulling out - is fear. There's going to be a lot of promises, rhetoric and denial on both sides of the argument, but it'll likely boil down to a choice between fear of the unknown should we go it alone, against fear of the status quo getting 'worse'.

Will we continue to have zero control over our borders, leading to millions of migrants and ISIS terrorists flooding our shores?
Will we lose the ability to trade on a fair basis with our largest market?
Will we expose ourselves to ever-increasing bail-out bills as one by one the poorer nations of the EU fall?
Will we suffer higher prices, leading to runaway inflation and a recession making us each poorer than we are now?

That's just a few questions off the top of my head that people may ask. The level of fear people have over the answers will dictate how they vote.

Sounds familiar, trade on the negative to get a result. The Tories and their press did a number on Miliband at the General Election and will doubtless try the same tactic at the referendum, this time though it may not be enough, particularly if the 'No' lobby get their act together...

 

[Chaz]

Sounds familiar, trade on the negative to get a result. The Tories and their press did a number on Miliband at the General Election and will doubtless try the same tactic at the referendum, this time though it may not be enough, particularly if the 'No' lobby get their act together...

I think that the No lobby will be trading on fear just as much. It's actually a lot easier for them to do so, they just need to play the immigrant card...

 

[Sooperhoop]

I think that the No lobby will be trading on fear just as much. It's actually a lot easier for them to do so, they just need to play the immigrant card...

Exactly, it promises to be a pretty grotesque campaign but events elsewhere may provide the 'No' campaign with timely ammunition...

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I agree control over immigration will probably be the key to voters (particularly as another country with a huge population will join soon - Turkey.) But for me, the massive influence the Euro zone will have - block voting - once it gets its act together, is an issue that will get worse with time so long as we remain in. This goes to Stan's point about the anti's wanting to leave whatever - the point to remember is that the EU has moved away from the UK. The UK has not moved away from the EU...yet

 

[TWGWTDT]

I agree control over immigration will probably be the key to voters (particularly as another country with a huge population will join soon - Turkey.) But for me, the massive influence the Euro zone will have - block voting - once it gets its act together, is an issue that will get worse with time so long as we remain in. This goes to Stan's point about the anti's wanting to leave whatever - the point to remember is that the EU has moved away from the UK. The UK has not moved away from the EU...yet

The UK hasn't got any power to move away from the EU and IMO would last five minutes on its own
The spin is just to control and fuel public opinion and if anyone thinks that governments have any say are deluded. All this does is comforts the fools who actually think Britain is a player . Without London and the money markets all the UK is is a very big shop selling imports

 

[sb_73]

I agree control over immigration will probably be the key to voters (particularly as another country with a huge population will join soon - Turkey.) But for me, the massive influence the Euro zone will have - block voting - once it gets its act together, is an issue that will get worse with time so long as we remain in. This goes to Stan's point about the anti's wanting to leave whatever - the point to remember is that the EU has moved away from the UK. The UK has not moved away from the EU...yet

Turkey won't join they will never meet the human rights standards. We were offered the chance of joining the Euro, declined it, you can't really blame the in crowd if they manipulate it in their own favour. The Euro is a great idea with the worst implementation known to man. The arrogance of your 'EU moving away' statement is outstanding, on a par with "fog in Channel, Continent cut off".

Changing the subject, the NHS is apparently failing on A&E waiting times, ambulance arrival times, cancer referral times and keeping people in hospital after they are ready to leave. I worked in and around the NHS from 1992 to 2001 (mostly around). All the problems were the same, but not as bad. Since then the NHS has had a massive increase in relative funding. It's ****ed.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

The UK hasn't got any power to move away from the EU and IMO would last five minutes on its own
The spin is just to control and fuel public opinion and if anyone thinks that governments have any say are deluded. All this does is comforts the fools who actually think Britain is a player . Without London and the money markets all the UK is is a very big shop selling imports

The UK is the fifth or sixth biggest economy in the world - if we can't manage, I don't think much for the chances of the rest. Together with Germany, we are the deep pocket in the EU

 

[Sooperhoop]

The UK hasn't got any power to move away from the EU and IMO would last five minutes on its own
The spin is just to control and fuel public opinion and if anyone thinks that governments have any say are deluded. All this does is comforts the fools who actually think Britain is a player . Without London and the money markets all the UK is is a very big shop selling imports

Europe needs Britain far more than we need Europe. They'll still trade with us when we're gone, they can't afford not to. Still, you can stay the other end of the tunnel as you hate us so much...

 

[TWGWTDT]

Europe needs Britain far more than we need Europe. They'll still trade with us when we're gone, they can't afford not to. Still, you can stay the other end of the tunnel as you hate us so much...

Agreed 100% otherwise what are going to buy in our shop. We don't produce much. I don't hate the UK at all ... I'm British and work here
It's exactly this sort of attitude that has ruined this great country

I agree the UK is strong doing business because it's people have to be at the top of the consumerism tables. How does the UK fair on personal debt?

I must admit I would love see to the day if someone said lets turn off the euro power supply . It's on a knife edge IMO because British people have forgotten how to act or work as a team. I challenge you to show me where Britain is working well apart from exporting arms and making good music

Take away the inbound services please list what is left apart from the financial institutions ?

 

[TWGWTDT]

The UK is the fifth or sixth biggest economy in the world - if we can't manage, I don't think much for the chances of the rest. Together with Germany, we are the deep pocket in the EU

The EU is strong as a union but wise up if you think we are a power of any substance. We rely very heavily on our relationships.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

The EU is strong as a union but wise up if you think we are a power of any substance. We rely very heavily on our relationships.

And being in the EU restricts our relationships with countries outside the EU. You take an incredibly defeatist attitude where this country is concerned. You're always talking it down!

 

[TWGWTDT]

And being in the EU restricts our relationships with countries outside the EU. You take an incredibly defeatist attitude where this country is concerned. You're always talking it down!

No Goldie I love it mate
I just think we have all moved to point that is irreversible

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Turkey won't join they will never meet the human rights standards. We were offered the chance of joining the Euro, declined it, you can't really blame the in crowd if they manipulate it in their own favour. The Euro is a great idea with the worst implementation known to man. The arrogance of your 'EU moving away' statement is outstanding, on a par with "fog in Channel, Continent cut off".

Changing the subject, the NHS is apparently failing on A&E waiting times, ambulance arrival times, cancer referral times and keeping people in hospital after they are ready to leave. I worked in and around the NHS from 1992 to 2001 (mostly around). All the problems were the same, but not as bad. Since then the NHS has had a massive increase in relative funding. It's ****ed.

Smug, scared, arrogant...for someone usually so measured, Stan, you're using unusually emotive language.

We joined a club. We were content that all members were treated equally. Then some members get together to form a club within a club, with the intention of becoming one entity. We decline to join - it wasn't what we signed up for. This new inner club becomes all powerful. How can it possibly be arrogant to say the original club has moved away from us?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

No Goldie I love it mate
I just think we have all moved to point that is irreversible

Glad to hear it, DT. If the UK leaves the EU, it will be in the interests of all parties that we maintain strong ties with the EU and its member states. I cannot foresee any circumstance where that wouldn't happen

 

[rangercol]

The UK hasn't got any power to move away from the EU and IMO would last five minutes on its own
The spin is just to control and fuel public opinion and if anyone thinks that governments have any say are deluded. All this does is comforts the fools who actually think Britain is a player . Without London and the money markets all the UK is is a very big shop selling imports

Typical own country hatred from you.

Of course we can manage outside the EU. They need us more than we need them.

 

[rangercol]

And being in the EU restricts our relationships with countries outside the EU. You take an incredibly defeatist attitude where this country is concerned. You're always talking it down!

Exactly.

 

[rangercol]

Smug, scared, arrogant...for someone usually so measured, Stan, you're using unusually emotive language.

We joined a club. We were content that all members were treated equally. Then some members get together to form a club within a club, with the intention of becoming one entity. We decline to join - it wasn't what we signed up for. This new inner club becomes all powerful. How can it possibly be arrogant to say the original club has moved away from us?

I think many people get very nervous when the English/British show any patriotism. They then go on the attack by making out that everything is rosy and that there is no problem with immigration whatsoever.

 

[TWGWTDT]

Typical own country hatred from you.

Of course we can manage outside the EU. They need us more than we need them.

Col under no circumstances am I trying to a rise from you nor do I think I have the world sussed but I travel now between two cultures on a monthly basis and see and feel a massive swing ... That's all it is

I love my country to my bones but have simply had enough because in my eyes a Englishman has become a man who moans a lot and does very little about it. Yes I am stereotyping but their is s culture here now that sucks in information scripted to us... We tend to try and own that before broadcasting it back out to the masses as our opinion and that is about the extent of it. I cross this over to my local French people who if they are not happy about something they get on the streets and make poor decisions get overturned
We in the UK have a government that works for itself primarily and spins a image In France the government and local authorities work for the people and are considered employees. If they do a bad job they are out

Think blowing up a few windmills if private companies get too big and greedy with often the police and pompiers helping against a strike hear in the UK whereupon the media make the strikes feel like criminals

In the UK we do not act and in numbers we do not care ... We are too interested in beating the Jones and outdoing out neighbours because we have become programmed to think that way

Christ just think how we treat the weather in the UK and how it controls people

We post around crap we read as if we own it and on TV Countryfile I believe is the number one show
You are a country lad I believe as am I do you believe that show reflects country life? . Not me as because my local village in the UK is now full of stock brokers or second homes I have had to leave part time to activate my soul.

Politics in the UK doesn't even really exist it's a soap opera IMO and people can't really make any impact or change on it .. You are left like me with just an opinion blowing in the wind or better put hot air

I again love the UK but it makes it nearly impossible for me to accept when nearly everything has been sold off.

My company does everything for Jag and Land Rover worldwide ... Great product sold as British owned by Tata

Your power is more than likely French

The list of British companies who product goods is getting smaller

I say again yes the UK is great it's a great place for the rest of the world to sell things to us and of course they are not going to stop. After all we are all rich in the UK look how much our houses are worth? Look how much money you possible owe?
The reality is that hardly none of the banks have any actual cash for their customers. In France it's against the law to be overdrawn and costs money to have a credit card ... How does that compare to the UK?

Everyone wants to come to the UK so get used to it and accept the change ... The U.K is sold mate

 

[sb_73]

I think many people get very nervous when the English/British show any patriotism. They then go on the attack by making out that everything is rosy and that there is no problem with immigration whatsoever.

Dead right I get nervous with patriotism, and not just English patriotism. After all, as that famous Englishman Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". What does your patriotism mean in practical rather than emotional terms Col? The immigration thing I get (I haven't mentioned it in this part of this thread but Indo below) but I assume there is more to it than that.

Smug, scared, arrogant...for someone usually so measured, Stan, you're using unusually emotive language.

We joined a club. We were content that all members were treated equally. Then some members get together to form a club within a club, with the intention of becoming one entity. We decline to join - it wasn't what we signed up for. This new inner club becomes all powerful. How can it possibly be arrogant to say the original club has moved away from us?

Emotive language is good, it stirs us up! All a matter of perspective Goldie and its a small c conservative perspective v a small p progressive perspective. Depends on where you stand, equally valid to say we have moved away from the EU, the majority have moved on (possibly in the wrong direction) we have stood still. Clubs change their rules over time, if we can't cope with that we really should get out. It's all subjective.

We contribute (directly) between £10 and 11bn a year to the EU. Obviously a huge figure, but in comparison to what we threw at crap banks, and what we spend on other things, really not very much. It's based on the size and health of our economy. 50% of our exports go to the EU (and 51% of out imports come from it). Our ability to trade with other nations isn't hindered in any way by being in the EU - Belgium manages to sell more to India than we do, despite being a member of the EU (mind you Indians have notoriously sweet teeth, presumably it's all chocolate. pull your socks up Cadburys... Oops that's a US company now).

Immigration seems to be the big issue. All the economic arguments seem to point to us not only benefitting from it but being dependent on it for growth. But it is undeniable that it is placing incredible stress on public services, schools, housing etc. Plus certain sections of the community are uncomfortable with the cultural impact. I don't know what the right balance is, but one thing is clear free movement of people within the EU is a key principle of the Union, there can be no logical opt out on it, and if the majority of people in the UK don't like it we really have to leave. This is what the referendum is about, and I hope that is made very clear as we go into it. Free movement of people has been of great personal benefit to me and other members of my family in the past, present and may be in the future, and for entirely selfish reasons I'd be very reluctant to lose that right.

Anyway, to keep the controversy going, hears an emotive analogy for you. The U.K. is the Jose Bosingwa of Europe, we want all the goodies while contributing as little as possible. And when we don't get out way we stamp our little feet and flounce off in a huff.

In other news, apparently the NHS, on the verge of collapse due to alleged underfunding, spent £4m on homeopathy last year. A tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, but enough to make my blood boil. Homeopathy is literally water, the only benefits it can deliver is the placebo effect. So we have spent £4m on water, and even worse we have doctors who have been expensively trained to be scientists prescribing water.FFS.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Not sure where you get your export/import figures from Stan. The following is from the Office for National Statistics (figures released 26 June this year):

"The EU in 2014 accounted for 44.6% of UK exports of goods and services, and 53.2% of UK imports of goods and services. However, strong economic growth in many developing economies outside the EU has resulted in non-EU economies growing in importance to UK trade, with the proportion accounted for by the EU falling consistently since 1999, despite the value of EU trade increasing."

"Faster growth in the value of UK imports compared to exports with the EU has resulted in the UK’s overall trade balance with the EU deteriorating (value of imports exceeding exports), with the trade deficit widening notably, reaching £61.6 billion in 2014 compared with £11.2 billion in 1999."

So we buy considerably more from EU countries, than we sell to them. And our trade with no-EU countries is going up, particularly the developing countries, while trade with the EU has been falling consistently for more than 15 years.

The only reason EU leaders seem relaxed about a referendum here, is that Cameron had been so weak on negotiations, and they feel confident they can give him a bag of nothing, and he'll take it back to the UK and recommend we stay in.

The Jose Bosingwa analogy is emotive (particularly to a QPR fan...) but it's not born out by the facts. We are the second largest contributor to the EU and our proportion is rising annually (spent on important stuff like subsidising French agriculture). It is effectively a tax on the UK for being prosperous.

I understand why, subjectively, you feel that free movement of people has been good for your family. And that's fine, you will vote accordingly. But it doesn't change the facts.