Off Topic The Politics Thread

[IwasanotherwatfordR]

We are already overcrowded. Our state facilities cannot cope. We are sending aid to India and Ethiopia who both have space programs yet just this week we cut another cancer drug. Sorry if this goes against the grain for the lefty "welcome them in mob" but seriously, for those crippled with taxes this madness has to stop surely.

 

[Eamon Holmes]

By reading this thread I can tell which contributors read the Daily Mail!

 

[sb_73]

We are already overcrowded. Our state facilities cannot cope. We are sending aid to India and Ethiopia who both have space programs yet just this week we cut another cancer drug. Sorry if this goes against the grain for the lefty "welcome them in mob" but seriously, for those crippled with taxes this madness has to stop surely.

Could you be more precise on the 'those crippled by taxes' comment - who are you talking about? Aren't you the bloke with a McLaren or something in his garage?

 

[IwasanotherwatfordR]

Could you be more precise on the 'those crippled by taxes' comment - who are you talking about? Aren't you the bloke with a McLaren or something in his garage?

And there is the rub. I employ many people and have paid seven figures in tax over the past few years. I took many risks (put my home on the line) to get where I am. In the USA I might be considered successful, in the UK I feel vilified. The British seem not to like success. The McLaren was sold. Those crippled by taxes are many all of the working public and I would suggest most professionals. The super wealthy seem to get away with paying low tax as they employ various schemes. It will be more noticeable when interest rates inevitably rise.

 

[Congleton_QPR]

The crux of the matter for me is what the precise status of the people fleeing the middle east is.
Are they Refugees or Migrants ?
A genuine refugee is obliged to claim refugee status in the first SAFE country they arrive at and must IMO get all the help they deserve after escaping such evils even if that first port of call is the UK.
However, many have arrived in Turkey and are deemed to be safe and free from fear of ISIS and their ilk.
Once that refugee decides to continue their journey onward and across seas to Greece, Germany and as many are concerned about ultimately the UK they become (economic) Migrants who have only made the decision to move elsewhere driven by the need for a "better" life rather than the primary need to feel safe.
Whether or not I would risk the lives of my young family for a better life as opposed to just a safe one is questionable and I think the motives of those moving around Europe after their original arrival should be examined.
For the record I don't think anything done at a football match or any public arena for that matter would make a blind bit of difference to government policy. They don't listen to the "little people", look at the don't attack Iraq march in London, over a million people protesting against it and look where that got them?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

You're having a laugh. There's no way Germany want all these refugees no matter what story regarding a labour shortage you cook up.

That's some stretch to say that Germany is taking in tens of thousands of asylum seekers for her own benefit!!

Germany's population is declining unlike the UK. You may have noticed that the migrants coming into Germany are not destitute, they're people who've had the resources to fund their and their family's journey using the traffickers. Many are business people and professionals and students.

It is recognised universally that a certain level of immigration can benefit a country economically. Germany is in such a position having a much lower density of population than the UK. Germany are astute - you only have to look at their dealings with Greece as evidence. But if you think it's all about love, Swords, dream on...!

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

By reading this thread I can tell which contributors read the Daily Mail!

Care to elucidate?

 

[sb_73]

The crux of the matter for me is what the precise status of the people fleeing the middle east is.
Are they Refugees or Migrants ?
A genuine refugee is obliged to claim refugee status in the first SAFE country they arrive at and must IMO get all the help they deserve after escaping such evils even if that first port of call is the UK.
However many have arrived in Turkey and are deemed to be safe and free from fear of ISIS and their ilk.
Once that refugee decides to continue their journey onward and across seas to Greece, Germany and as many are concerned about ultimately the UK they become (economic) Migrants who have only made the decision to move elsewhere driven by the need for a "better" life rather than the primary need to feel safe.
Whether or not I would risk the lives of my young family for a "better" life as opposed to just a safe one is questionable and I think the motives of those moving around Europe after their original arrival should be examined.
For the record I don't think anything done at a football match or any public arena for that matter would make a blind bit of difference to government policy. They don;'t listen to the "little people", look at the don't attack Iraq march in London, over a million people protesting against it and look where that got them?

Would you feel the same if the UK bordered Syria and Iraq, and you had 2 million refugees (yes they are refugees, Syria has bombed itself to ****, at least 220,000 killed to January this year)? Of course not, you would expect and ask the rest of the 'safe' world to help. Just like it did over 40 years ago with the Vietnamese boat people - when Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia could take no more the west, and especially the US, France and Australia stepped in.

Are you saying that people should be denied the choice to seek a better life than sitting in a refugee camp?

 

[Sooperhoop]

Care to elucidate?

He's Mystic Eamon...

 

[Swords Hoopster.]

I didn't say its all about love Sir. But I certainly wouldn't go as far to the other extreme as you have by concocting a few stats and coming up with a story that suits a prearranged narrative that fits nicely in your head. I happen to agree with the UK's stance (because I am a racist) but as soon as you start bullshi*ting you lose the people in the middle. No disrespect but I know what British nationalists think of Germans so I'm rather suspicious of everything you write regarding them.

Michael Moore destroyed his whole movement by cooking up a load of sh*te and trying to ram it down people's throats. If the fat cu*t had've simply stuck to the facts he'd have had half the World on his side

 

[Sooperhoop]

I believe the agreement for asylum seekers is they seek asylum in the first 'safe' country they arrive in, not use it as a stepping-stone to a wealthier and more lucrative country. That is being roundly ignored throughout mainland Europe and inevitably results in what we currently see at present.

Certainly we have a moral obligation to help the Syrians as IS grew from Britain and the US quietly arming opposition to Assad's regime. The rest is the result of the much lauded by the left 'Arab Spring' which saw several dictators overthrown and the resulting power vacuums in some of those countries fed the rise of IS and other fundamentalist groups.

The West started the destabilisation of the Middle East via Bush and Blair and has only exacerbated the problem since, it is going to get much worse before it gets better...

 

[KooPeeArr]

Given the choice of whether human beings, who have fled for their lives, spend potentially years of their lives herded in camps in Turkey or get brought here and given the chance of proper lives, it should be an easy decision.

How many Romania or Djibouti take or what their bank balances or CVs look like seems irrelevant to me.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I didn't say its all about love Sir. But I certainly wouldn't go as far to the other extreme as you have by concocting a few stats and coming up with a story that suits a prearranged narrative that fits nicely in your head. I happen to agree with the UK's stance (because I am a racist) but as soon as you start bullshi*ting you lose the people in the middle. No disrespect but I know what British nationalists think of Germans so I'm rather suspicious of everything you write regarding them.

Michael Moore destroyed his whole movement by cooking up a load of sh*te and trying to ram it down people's throats. If the fat cu*t had've simply stuck to the facts he'd have had half the World on his side

I said "largely self interest" I don't think that's an extreme position. The UK's position is more about numbers than race. I've never seen anything in your posts to suggest you are a racist so you're exaggerating or you keep it well hidden. As for Germans, I have immense respect for them and what the have achieved in the past 60 years. It's politicians I'm cynical about

 

[Congleton_QPR]

Are you saying that people should be denied the choice to seek a better life than sitting in a refugee camp?

I'm not saying they should be denied a better life , but we are being led to believe that the Migrants (because that's what they are as opposed to refugees by the time they arrive at calais) are risking life and limb to get to dover because they are in fear of their lives, when in fact the vast majority have already achieved a safe life if nothing else already.
I also seriously question the sense of putting your entire family in a flimsy boat risking their very lives to achieve "the dream".
I'm sorry but if I had reached a refugee camp with all my family intact having genuinely come from the horrors that are being reported in Syria I would like to think I would hold them close, be happy with my lot and not expose my children to anymore risk than absolutely necessary

 

[sb_73]

I'm not saying they should be denied a better life , but we are being led to believe that the Migrants (because that's what they are as opposed to refugees by the time they arrive at calais) are risking life and limb to get to dover because they are in fear of their lives, when in fact the vast majority have already achieved a safe life if nothing else already.
I also seriously question the sense of putting your entire family in a flimsy boat risking their very lives to achieve "the dream".
I'm sorry but if I had reached a refugee camp with all my family intact having genuinely come from the horrors that are being reported in Syria I would like to think I would hold them close, be happy with my lot and not expose my children to anymore risk than absolutely necessary

I think you would have to spend a few months in a Turkish or Lebanese refugee camp to make that call. And you didn't answer the question, would you be so keen on the policy you like if the UK was the first 'safe haven'?

 

[sb_73]

And there is the rub. I employ many people and have paid seven figures in tax over the past few years. I took many risks (put my home on the line) to get where I am. In the USA I might be considered successful, in the UK I feel vilified. The British seem not to like success. The McLaren was sold. Those crippled by taxes are many all of the working public and I would suggest most professionals. The super wealthy seem to get away with paying low tax as they employ various schemes. It will be more noticeable when interest rates inevitably rise.

There is certainly something about the Brits knocking the successful (though that is not unique to us). One of the things I like about working in the US (and there are many things I don't like) is the simple sense of optimism and delight in achievement you find there. It jolts me out of my default cynicism, curse of the British and does me good. If this cynicism is pissing off people like you who generate wealth for many more people than themselves we have serious problems. But on paper I don't think out tax system is harsher than any other western country and is milder than most. It's the price we pay for public services - my problem is the quality of what we are getting.

 

[Congleton_QPR]

I think you would have to spend a few months in a Turkish or Lebanese refugee camp to make that call. And you didn't answer the question, would you be so keen on the policy you like if the UK was the first 'safe haven'?

I think I said in my original post that genuine refugees deserve all the help in the world even if the UK is their first port of call. My stance isn't one of hard hearted "close all the borders for all comers" if we are the first "safe" country they reach then yes, absolutely we must help. I don't think this is often the case though, I think the journey from Syria crosses quite a few safe borders before arriving in Calais.
I take your point that a refugee camp is far from "des res" it is still preferable to impending torture and death in Syria though and also I 'd venture preferable to potentially drowning your children when your dinghy capsizes.
However I do accept that you would probably have to be there so to speak but I do feel fairly confident on where my decisions would lie were I to be so unfortunate as these people

 

[Bush Rhino]

Distressing to see the images currently on TV, but we do have to make a distinction between refugees and economic migrants. How we do that seems to be the cause of much debate.

I think in a nutshell we interfered in Syria and Libya and make matters worse so should take our fair share of people fleeing those counties, we made the bed now we have to lay in it.

Reminds of a theme in breaking bad about how taking half measures solves nothing, trouble is what do we do now?

 

[sb_73]

I didn't say its all about love Sir. But I certainly wouldn't go as far to the other extreme as you have by concocting a few stats and coming up with a story that suits a prearranged narrative that fits nicely in your head. I happen to agree with the UK's stance (because I am a racist) but as soon as you start bullshi*ting you lose the people in the middle. No disrespect but I know what British nationalists think of Germans so I'm rather suspicious of everything you write regarding them.

Michael Moore destroyed his whole movement by cooking up a load of sh*te and trying to ram it down people's throats. If the fat cu*t had've simply stuck to the facts he'd have had half the World on his side

You're not a racist, based on what I have read. You do have a problem with people who believe in the fairies at the bottom of the garden, or the more apocalyptic equivalents. So do I, but even these cretins are human and they can believe what they want as long as it's of their own free will, and they don't want to blow themselves up, and us with them.

Genuinely moving scenes at Munich station as many Germans not only handed out food etc to arriving refugees, but applauded them, For hours as train after train arrived from Austria. 8,000 into Germany today they reckon. I am not naive enough to think all Germans feel this way.

 

[Stroller]

I think I said in my original post that genuine refugees deserve all the help in the world even if the UK is their first port of call. My stance isn't one of hard hearted "close all the borders for all comers" if we are the first "safe" country they reach then yes, absolutely we must help. I don't think this is often the case though, I think the journey from Syria crosses quite a few safe borders before arriving in Calais.
I take your point that a refugee camp is far from "des res" it is still preferable to impending torture and death in Syria though and also I 'd venture preferable to potentially drowning your children when your dinghy capsizes.
However I do accept that you would probably have to be there so to speak but I do feel fairly confident on where my decisions would lie were I to be so unfortunate as these people

You haven't said it, Congleton, but there's a common perception that tens of thousands of refugees are crossing numerous borders to get to the UK because we are a 'soft touch'. I don't believe this is the case. The family of the drowned Syrian child had the aim of getting to Canada because they have family there - perhaps many of those in Calais have family in the UK. For some it may be just the fact that they can speak English, but not German or French. I find it hard to believe that many would choose to come to a place as unwelcoming as the UK.