Off Topic The Politics Thread

[GoldhawkRoad]

Whatever scenario this will be very hard on ordinary people in Greece. But ecomonic stability, rather than prosperity, is more strongly aligned with happiness. Hence 7 of the top ten 'happy' countries being relatively poor latin American ones.

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Greece is currently way down on the next bit of the list. Iraq and Syria at the bottom.

Colombia and Panama in the top five...! I suspect it was more about what they'd just sniffed up their noses before being asked how happy they felt.

I agree economic stability is key, but of course, if Greece had had greater prosperity it would have economic stability now, because it would be able to pay off all the debts it has racked up.

I've yet to hear of a country that is too prosperous. If you speak to the millionaires in Monaco or Switzerland, chances are they will say they are never happy because they are always striving for more...but they lead a pretty satisfying life from their perspective and wouldn't swap it for a banana picker in Venezuela

 

[QPR Oslo]

Sadly, this says everything about modern Greece. It's all in the past. They need to reinvent themselves, especially commercially

May be we should start their ball rolling by returning the Elgin Marbles...

I go to the Islands every year. Many of the older people there tell me they think they need to go back to what they did before, using their land to grow the amazing vegetables they have there, and back to using the sea. Concentration on turism has been made at the expense of all that.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I go to the Islands every year. Many of the older people there tell me they think they need to go back to what they did before, using their land to grow the amazing vegetables they have there, and back to using the sea. Concentration on turism has been made at the expense of all that.

Gerald Durrell and John Fowles's The Magus spring to mind. Elements of paradise, undoubtedly, but how do you pay for a national health service? It may be though that the seeds of recovery do lie in producing good fresh food that Europe wants. Eating olives and feta cheese are part of a Greek holiday, but may be they need to diversify a little...

 

[Pils-the-hoop]

Gerald Durrell and John Fowles's The Magus spring to mind. Elements of paradise, undoubtedly, but how do you pay for a national health service? It may be though that the seeds of recovery do lie in producing good fresh food that Europe wants. Eating olives and feta cheese are part of a Greek holiday, but may be they need to diversify a little...

The top five exported HS 6 digit level products to world by Greece along with trade value are:

• Greece exported Petroleum oils and oils obtained from bituminous minerals (excl. crude); preparations containing >= 70% by weight of petroleum oils or of oils obtained from bituminous minerals, these oils being the basic constituents of the preparations n.e.s. , worth US$ 13,639,491.03 million.
• Greece exported Medicaments consisting of mixed or unmixed products for therapeutic or prophylactic purposes, in measured doses or put up for retail sale (excl. antibiotics containing hormones or steroids used as hormones, but not containing antibiotics, alkaloids or der , worth US$ 1,013,991.08 million.
• Greece exported Virgin olive oil and its fractions obtained from the fruit of the olive tree solely by mechanical or other physical means under conditions that do not lead to deterioration of the oil , worth US$ 601,827.66 million.
• Greece exported Fresh or chilled freshwater and saltwater fish (excl. salmonidae, flat fish, tunas, skipjack or stripe-bellied bonito, herrings, cod, sardines, sardinella, brisling or sprats, haddock, coalfish, mackerel, sharks and eels) , worth US$ 553,500.63 million.
• Greece exported Plates, sheets and strip, of non-alloy aluminium, of a thickness of > 0,2 mm, rectangular "including square" (excl. expanded plates, sheets and strip) , worth US$ 536,744.15 million.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

The top five exported HS 6 digit level products to world by Greece along with trade value are:

• Greece exported Petroleum oils and oils obtained from bituminous minerals (excl. crude); preparations containing >= 70% by weight of petroleum oils or of oils obtained from bituminous minerals, these oils being the basic constituents of the preparations n.e.s. , worth US$ 13,639,491.03 million.
• Greece exported Medicaments consisting of mixed or unmixed products for therapeutic or prophylactic purposes, in measured doses or put up for retail sale (excl. antibiotics containing hormones or steroids used as hormones, but not containing antibiotics, alkaloids or der , worth US$ 1,013,991.08 million.
• Greece exported Virgin olive oil and its fractions obtained from the fruit of the olive tree solely by mechanical or other physical means under conditions that do not lead to deterioration of the oil , worth US$ 601,827.66 million.
• Greece exported Fresh or chilled freshwater and saltwater fish (excl. salmonidae, flat fish, tunas, skipjack or stripe-bellied bonito, herrings, cod, sardines, sardinella, brisling or sprats, haddock, coalfish, mackerel, sharks and eels) , worth US$ 553,500.63 million.
• Greece exported Plates, sheets and strip, of non-alloy aluminium, of a thickness of > 0,2 mm, rectangular "including square" (excl. expanded plates, sheets and strip) , worth US$ 536,744.15 million.

In other words, not very much.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Whatever scenario this will be very hard on ordinary people in Greece. But ecomonic stability, rather than prosperity, is more strongly aligned with happiness. Hence 7 of the top ten 'happy' countries being relatively poor latin American ones.

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Greece is currently way down on the next bit of the list. Iraq and Syria at the bottom.

Woo boo
16th

 

[Pils-the-hoop]

In other words, not very much.

Not when you compare it with their imports which is twice the value.

 

[sb_73]

Cost of clearing Greece's debts is €3 per head for every EU citizen. And brilliantly a crowdfunding site called Indiegogo is trying to help raise it - over €1m raised from 64,000 people in 3 days. Of course it won't work, but it makes you feel good.

 

[Pils-the-hoop]

Cost of clearing Greece's debts is €3 per head for every EU citizen. And brilliantly a crowdfunding site called Indiegogo is trying to help raise it - over €1m raised from 64,000 people in 3 days. Of course it won't work, but it makes you feel good.

What really hacks me off though Sb is that we have already bailed the banks out to the tune of billions and are all now suffering in the name of austerity! Yet here we are doing the same again.

It used to be that if shareholders / stakeholders invested in something and lost their money that was accepted as the risk they take. Now they just go cap in hand to the taxpayer on the basis that they are too big to fail.

The IMF has made a fortune investing in gold using the money chipped in by member countries presumably.

It is all just so wrong!!

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

What really hacks me off though Sb is that we have already bailed the banks out to the tune of billions and are all now suffering in the name of austerity! Yet here we are doing the same again.

It used to be that if shareholders / stakeholders invested in something and lost their money that was accepted as the risk they take. Now they just go cap in hand to the taxpayer on the basis that they are too big to fail.

The IMF has made a fortune investing in gold using the money chipped in by member countries presumably.

It is all just so wrong!!

Agree about the bailing out of the UK banks, Pils. Maddening! But the Greek scenario is different. The lender is going to the debtor to recover its monies, as opposed to writing them off as bad debts and then getting reimbursed by taxpayers (through governments). On a clinical basis, it can't be faulted.

 

[sb_73]

Agree about the bailing out of the UK banks, Pils. Maddening! But the Greek scenario is different. The lender is going to the debtor to recover its monies, as opposed to writing them off as bad debts and then getting reimbursed by taxpayers (through governments). On a clinical basis, it can't be faulted.

Clinical judgements are usually made on the basis of outcomes, i.e. the patient is cured, or at least better than before the treatment. Hmm.......

 

[Pils-the-hoop]

Agree about the bailing out of the UK banks, Pils. Maddening! But the Greek scenario is different. The lender is going to the debtor to recover its monies, as opposed to writing them off as bad debts and then getting reimbursed by taxpayers (through governments). On a clinical basis, it can't be faulted.

To be fair Greece should never had been allowed in, in the first place. but as soon as it did join banks were queuing up to throw money at Greece ( assuming that now with the euro its economy was lined with Germany's.)

It is just another classic tale of banks lending irresponsibly as far as I am concerned.................they all knew the risks involved and were simply motivated, as always by greed.

As I said in an earlier thread banks are only good at creating two things - profit and poverty.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Clinical judgements are usually made on the basis of outcomes, i.e. the patient is cured, or at least better than before the treatment. Hmm.......

That's why I said "clinical", Stan. I thought you'd cover the human tragedy element. I'm not without sympathy for the situation in which the Greek population find themselves. But they're not without some responsibility. They voted in the governments that allowed this to happen and presumably most of them benefited from the evasion of taxes which has been endemic in Greece for many years.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

To be fair Greece should never had been allowed in, in the first place. but as soon as it did join banks were queuing up to throw money at Greece ( assuming that now with the euro its economy was lined with Germany's.)

It is just another classic tale of banks lending irresponsibly as far as I am concerned.................they all knew the risks involved and were simply motivated, as always by greed.

As I said in an earlier thread banks are only good at creating two things - profit and poverty.

If banks lend with a hard sell to an individual who clearly can't afford to repay and is getting out of his/her depths, the bank must bear much of the blame

If banks lend to a democratically elected government of a European country, surely the bank is able to rely on the fact that the said government will only borrow to the extent which it believes it can afford? Isn't it patronising to a great country like Greece to argue otherwise?

 

[Pils-the-hoop]

If banks lend with a hard sell to an individual who clearly can't afford to repay and is getting out of his/her depths, the bank must bear much of the blame

If banks lend to a democratically elected government of a European country, surely the bank is able to rely on the fact that the said government will only borrow to the extent which it believes it can afford? Isn't it patronising to a great country like Greece to argue otherwise?

Not when that country joined up with a true debt of 8.3% GDP and was actively helped by Goldman Sachs to hide the extent of their deficit with the help of a derivatives deal!

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Not when that country joined up with a true debt of 8.3% GDP and was actively helped by Goldman Sachs to hide the extent of their deficit with the help of a derivatives deal!

If the democratically elected government of an independent country instructs a bank to hide the country's deficit, then the government, the country and possibly that particular bank are responsible for the consequences...

 

[Pils-the-hoop]

In my mind, if a bank helps a country to join a union by assisting them in defrauding that union in the name of profit and the the end result is another bank get screwed in the process that is hardly the fault of that country's people.

The fault lies squarely with the banks does it not?

 

[sb_73]

If the democratically elected government of an independent country instructs a bank to hide the country's deficit, then the government, the country and possibly that particular bank are responsible for the consequences...

By the 'country' do you mean the citizens of Greece? By that logic the European Bank and IMF will be sending bailiffs round to seize assets from people's homes. And you, as a British citizen, are responsible for the £1.5 trillion debt that we have, should the people you elected fail to make an interest payment.

Can I have your bank card and PIN number Goldie?

 

[Pils-the-hoop]

If the democratically elected government of an independent country instructs a bank to hide the country's deficit, then the government, the country and possibly that particular bank are responsible for the consequences...

I would hazard a guess that it was probably the other way around Goldie.

I am pretty confident that the electorate were not given a mandate of fraud to vote for!

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

By the 'country' do you mean the citizens of Greece? By that logic the European Bank and IMF will be sending bailiffs round to seize assets from people's homes. And you, as a British citizen, are responsible for the £1.5 trillion debt that we have, should the people you elected fail to make an interest payment.

Can I have your bank card and PIN number Goldie?

By country, I mean the assets of a country beyond the party that is in government. I don't suppose individuals are jointly and severally liable to international banking organisations but they are heavily impacted if their country, through the elected government, defaults.

No, you can't have my bank card and PIN number, Stan. You'd only empty my account of the £4.50 in it, and send it off to the Greek fighting fund...