Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
It will be made more difficult, and lets face it we aren't exactly well liked in Europe anyway. If you were a director of a company that trades all over Europe where would you but your offices? I would certainly not be choosing the UK if they left and sadly that is how I expect a lot of these businesses are thinking, and to be honest I can't blame them

I'm not so sure. I really don't see us leaving the EU making anyone who previously was happy to operate here less so. We've still got a fantastic Financial sector. If operating in the UK is the most profitable way, people will continue to do it IMO. I doubt there's much sense of loyalty to the EU from other European businesses.
 
I fear the economic debate will be lost in the noise over immigration. We are only having the referendum in the first place because Cameron and his advisors saw it as a way to avoid losing support to UKIP - they didn't expect to have to deliver on the promise.
 
I'm still not sure what the pros are in reality. I get the trade argument but don't buy that trade with Germany, France etc. will suddenly collapse. No reason we can't have a Free Trade Area still existing.
I think there is a very practical issue Watford around immigration - if we close our borders(ish) and remove welfare etc rights for immigrants we do let in (shouldn't be a problem as presumably we only let them in if they have a job or a skill in an area where we are short i.e. all of them) what happens to the 2.5m Brits living in other EU countries benefitting from current rules? Interesting that these people will not be allowed to vote in the referendum.

On the economic side I am sure that the UK would lose inward investment from multinationals, unless we offered them outrageous tax breaks or specialised as a low labour cost economy. I think the comparisons with Norway, Switzerland etc are fair ones, but it should be remembered that these are small, and not very industrial countries, and that their membership of the trade zone is predicated on them accepting EU rules, over which they have no say.
 
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It will be made more difficult, and lets face it we aren't exactly well liked in Europe anyway. If you were a director of a company that trades all over Europe where would you but your offices? I would certainly not be choosing the UK if they left and sadly that is how I expect a lot of these businesses are thinking, and to be honest I can't blame them

Probably be staying at the place with the lowest corporation tax. Which ironically is the UK. Why do you think that the major banks are still here versus Europe. It's because it's lower which saves them more money. Plus we will not tax them on transactions.
 
I suppose if we are going to have this discussion, we should be clear on what Cameron is 'renegotiating' on. This is it, there is no more detail available to the public as far as I know:

In broad brush strokes he wants:
1. An opt-out on the core EU aim of "ever closer union" including boosting the sovereignty and powers of national parliaments, so groups of them can block proposed EU legislation [my take - if the purpose of the EU is 'ever closer union' and we don't like it, we should leave]
2. To safeguard the interests of the UK as a country and specifically of the City of London and other financial centres outside the eurozone [ this looks anti competitive to me, and against the interests of the Eurozone countries. The City should remain a major centre because it offers better stuff, whatever that is, and is more competitive. Of course if we leave the EU we won't be able to 'safegaurd our interersts' as easily. We reached a decision (in a rather muddled way) to stay out of the Euro, we need to live with the consequences of that, many of which seem positive.]
3. To curb internal EU immigration by cutting benefits [I think he'll get this, but it doesn't answer the central question which is much more important to the electorate, how do we reduce immigration?]
4. To make the EU more streamlined and competitive [difficult to argue against in principle, what does it mean?]

Whatever the results, I doubt it will satisfy the anti EU Tories. I rather resent that this whole thing is really about an internal Conservative Party schism. I really don't think the general public is too bothered by the EU, except for immigration. Here's an idea on that - the UK legislates on it's own to restrict immigration and see if the EU then throws us out.

My understanding is Cameron will be happy with some kind of promise about EU legislation/treaty change prior to a UK referendum. Tory sceptics already saying that 'you can't trust the EU to deliver on a promise' as if the EU as a concept makes decisions rather than the people who run the EU - the heads of it member states. So really they are saying 'you can't trust the German, French, Italian etc government leaders.'. Probably true, you also can't trust the British Government of course.

Not sure whether tactically he is in a stronger or weaker position because of the two much bigger short term (hopefully) issues facing the EU - Greece and the boat people crisis.

Interesting post, Stan, but I don't believe the forthcoming EU referendum is all about Tory internal politics. Just having the referendum was a vote-winner for the Tories with the public, and Miliband was misguided to refuse it. Indeed, Labour has its own, growing faction that is EU sceptical - and then there are the 4,000,000 UKIP voters.

I'm leaning to OUT but will keep an open mind, and will watch Cameron's negotiations with the other 27. The power in the EU is obviously Germany which has more influence, not least, being in the euro. The euro looked good for them early on, making it easier to see their goods to other euro member states. As we're seeing in Greece, this is backfiring. And in the euro, Germany is saddled with some other partners with questionable economies particularly in the south eg Italy and Spain where bribery, fraud and tax evasion is endemic - any of these could be the next Greece. Mrs Merkel will not want the UK, the 4th or 5th biggest economy in the world, to leave the EU and this should give Cameron leverage with her. I can't judge yet whether a country like Poland would veto any Cameron/Merkel arrangement for the UK.

The current chaos at Calais with (mostly) economic migrants is a natural vote winner for Farage, and it could impact the referendum if the EU don't come up with a workable plan promptly.
 
Probably be staying at the place with the lowest corporation tax. Which ironically is the UK. Why do you think that the major banks are still here versus Europe. It's because it's lower which saves them more money. Plus we will not tax them on transactions.

Never mentioned banks specifically, was more on about businesses in general
 
It will be made more difficult, and lets face it we aren't exactly well liked in Europe anyway. If you were a director of a company that trades all over Europe where would you but your offices? I would certainly not be choosing the UK if they left and sadly that is how I expect a lot of these businesses are thinking, and to be honest I can't blame them

I think that is a bit of a myth Tim. Agree that Europe may get the hump but history shows us that you buy where the product is good. As a country we are one of the major players in Europe and they would miss us if we left. Not all is good in Europe. To say everyone would get up and move their business away from Britain is way off mark. Would you trust your company to have its head office in Greece? This country is good at what it does and all of Europe knows that.
 
I think that is a bit of a myth Tim. Agree that Europe may get the hump but history shows us that you buy where the product is good. As a country we are one of the major players in Europe and they would miss us if we left. Not all is good in Europe. To say everyone would get up and move their business away from Britain is way off mark. Would you trust your company to have its head office in Greece? This country is good at what it does and all of Europe knows that.


I have read in the news over on numerous occasions where businesses have already stated they will be either evaluating their options or leaving the UK, mostly non UK companies. Yes it could be companies trying to influence peoples decisions and media spin but I honestly believe this will happen, the extent I don't know
 
I have read in the news over on numerous occasions where businesses have already stated they will be either evaluating their options or leaving the UK, mostly non UK companies. Yes it could be companies trying to influence peoples decisions and media spin but I honestly believe this will happen, the extent I don't know

Well the company i work for is a well known British company based in London. It is the best in the World at what it does and every country comes to us for our fantastic product. Never in a million years or all the sand in the Sahara would it pick up sticks and move to somewhere like Spain /Greece/ or wherever, if we left the EU. To say these countries would go elsewhere for our product is ridiculous.

lets be honest would you rather have banking in Britain or Greece? Would my company trust the Latvia/Bulgaria/Romania's or whoever to produce their product or supply the specialists, the answer is no. in fact, never in a million years.
The Euro is having a nightmare at the moment and we could actually see Greece leave.
I am not anti Europe, in fact i think if it was run properly it would be a good thing, however it isn't and something needs to change. All i can say is thank god we were not in the Euro because many who support it wouldn't be now.
 
These austerity protests seem a load of bollocks from people who just can't take that there will be a Tory government for another five years. The others lost, get on with it.

Its not about who is in power. It is about the most vulnerable in society having their benefits squeezed - you know disabled people and all that - so that George Osbourne can fund a tax break for the top earners by reducing the top rate to 40%.

Did you realise that Ian Duncan-Smith is currently in the high courts trying to get a law passed to ensure that the number of disabled people that have died as a direct result of his DWP changes never reaches the public domain?

I think they are also a little upset at the fact that there as several million children now living in poverty.

But hey, I guess you are sitting pretty in your ivory tower glued to your Daily Mail so sod 'em eh?<doh>
 
Well the company i work for is a well known British company based in London. It is the best in the World at what it does and every country comes to us for our fantastic product. Never in a million years or all the sand in the Sahara would it pick up sticks and move to somewhere like Spain /Greece/ or wherever, if we left the EU. To say these countries would go elsewhere for our product is ridiculous.

lets be honest would you rather have banking in Britain or Greece? Would my company trust the Latvia/Bulgaria/Romania's or whoever to produce their product or supply the specialists, the answer is no. in fact, never in a million years.
The Euro is having a nightmare at the moment and we could actually see Greece leave.
I am not anti Europe, in fact i think if it was run properly it would be a good thing, however it isn't and something needs to change. All i can say is thank god we were not in the Euro because many who support it wouldn't be now.
It's future investment decisions by companies that are most at risk, they are not going to rip up existing infrastructure and supply/distribution networks overnight. But if a company aim is to sell in the EU, it will always be easier to do that from within the EU than sitting on its edge.

Would I rather have banking in Britain or Greece? Unfair question the alternative is Germany, and it wouldn't bother me either way, except costs are higher in Germany. The reason we are a financial hub is that transactions are taxed relatively lightly here.

Agree re the Euro - I am fully behind the concept (it makes perfect sense if your aim is a single market, takes out a chunk of transaction cost and uncertainty around exchange rates. My company is selling 10% more year on year in Japan but earning less due to the devaluation in the Yen, which is infuriating), but it's design and implementation have been incredibly cack handed. Too much too soon.

Let's be absolutely clear what would happen in the event of an exit. The first trade treaty we would negotiate is with the EU, because it is by far our biggest market. Our aim would be free access to the market, on similar grounds to what we have now. Just like Norway in fact. And if we had the same arrangement as Norway the terms would be acceptance of EU regulations and a contribution to the EU budget - it is estimated that our EU budget contribution would drop by a massive 9% compared to the current full membership cost (and, for example, we would lose the subsidies that make agriculture in Wales and Northern Ireland viable). The other thing we would lose is of course our ability to influence and shape the regulations.

Let's say we decline this kind of arrangement. Then your company's product would be subject to tariffs on export to the EU, pushing up the price. This creates an opportunity for entrepreneurs in the EU to produce the same stuff (probably not as good) and sell it cheaper. May take them some time, but your competitive position has changed hugely.

I really don't get the economic argument for Brexit at all.

The immigration argument is stronger in terms of the impact of EU immigration on UK infrastructure, but these immigrants are net contributors to our economy through tax.

Col's position of principle, not wanting to be governed from afar/cede sovereignty to others, is the one that is most understandable, though I don't agree with it personally.
 
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Define poverty...

There is a child at my daughters school whose mother (single) works at our local college. It is now the college holidays and being on a zero hours contract she is not entitled to any pay during this time

The DWP stopped her benefits in error the moment she got this work (which was sporadic at best).

She is now in dire straits having had no income at all for several months.

Her daughter currently has no access to heating or hot water ( utility company cut off her supply ), her neighbours and my family are feeding her and supplying her with clothes and shoes.

The CAB have been little help but their family GP has said he will refer them to a food bank with vouchers for 3 days worth of food.

Unfortunately, they cant cook any of the food as they have no gas.

Tories would label them " benefit scroungers" but they are working.

Would that ****ing count???!!!!
 
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Its not about who is in power. It is about the most vulnerable in society having their benefits squeezed - you know disabled people and all that - so that George Osbourne can fund a tax break for the top earners by reducing the top rate to 40%.

Did you realise that Ian Duncan-Smith is currently in the high courts trying to get a law passed to ensure that the number of disabled people that have died as a direct result of his DWP changes never reaches the public domain?

I think they are also a little upset at the fact that there as several million children now living in poverty.

But hey, I guess you are sitting pretty in your ivory tower glued to your Daily Mail so sod 'em eh?<doh>

Erm, I don't read the Mail and I earn a decent wage for someone my age but nothing spectacular.

Taxes at the top end should be cut. There's absolutely nothing to suggest higher taxes at the top end increase the tax revenue generated. Where the optimum level is is difficult to say but pre-Thatcher, income taxes on the rich were incredibly punitive and it just encourages tax avoidance and discourages those high earners to put the graft in that earns them, and the economy, the big bucks.
 
Erm, I don't read the Mail and I earn a decent wage for someone my age but nothing spectacular.

Taxes at the top end should be cut. There's absolutely nothing to suggest higher taxes at the top end increase the tax revenue generated. Where the optimum level is is difficult to say but pre-Thatcher, income taxes on the rich were incredibly punitive and it just encourages tax avoidance and discourages those high earners to put the graft in that earns them, and the economy, the big bucks.


But not funded by those at the bottom!!