Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Toby said:
Coming from the person that answers some ****ty 'you're in your bedroom' comments at perfectly polite questions <laugh>

I was born in Stoke Newington, I've seen London in various states throughout the years. The best were the New Labour years, the worst the Thatcher/Major years.

I work and go out regularly. If you only consume right wing news then you'll have a picture of London as a lawless hellhole, but if you actually live here you just notice it's more dirty and broken. The cause? Huge budget cuts due to Tory austerity.

Throw all the stats at me that you want at me. When I see people gleefully posting videos of a young black guy stabbing someone then linking it to immigration it makes me angry. He was most likely born here, and stuck growing up in the Tory austerity years. Poverty is a bigger cause of criminal activity than race, yet somehow the 2nd category is the one that gets blamed. I wonder why?
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Thank goodness everything will be solved once Labour are elected.......
 
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rangercol said:
Thank goodness everything will be solved once Labour are elected.......
Click to expand...

Everything will be solved? Nope.

Will things get better? They can't get any worse <laugh> At least they won't be siphoning off billions to their mates, donors, relatives and themselves.
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
I strongly suggest, Toby, that if you're going to post on another football site ( I say, another, - I don't even know if you support a team) then it's best to avoid personal abuse.

I'll answer your question. I was last in London six weeks ago to see an ailing uncle and aunt who live in Kew. I have friends in Muswell Hill, Shepherd's Bush and Thornton Heath, though most of my friends have moved out – a cousin of mine moved from Stoke Newington having started a family and being concerned at the high crime rate. My friends' kids who grew up in Shepherd's Bush were constantly being robbed at knifepoint – and yes, there was an ethnic dimension to that.

I was born in London (Herne Hill), and worked there for twenty five years. It's particularly bad for crime now, especially knife crime, but, of course, there's rising criminality all over the country. I blame Khan for his steps in London to deter stop and search ( and many decent young men, mostly black, have suffered as a result), but mostly I blame the Tories and particularly Theresa May for cutting down police numbers and shutting police stations. When the Third World comes into a country in large numbers, more police are needed, not less.

That there is a link between rising crime and immigration is undeniable (have a look at Sweden). I posted a YouGov survey at #90569 that left Strolls dumbstruck. Feel free to comment on it. The Danish government also put out figures comparing crime rates to ethnic minorities. Parts of the right of centre media are now seeking the same information from the UK Department of Justice. That department is resisting – and there's the point. An increasing number of people in the UK are disillusioned with our political system because of a lack of honesty, particularly on an issue like immigration, and a constant shying away from difficult issues like white child abuse and gangs. It leads to cynicism, and then one of two things happen. Voters start moving away from the two main political parties out to the wings of the political spectrum – it's happening now, and hugely so in many European countries. Or, they stop voting altogether, which is highly likely to occur at the next UK GE. And low turnout equals damage to democracy.

So I strongly recommend you adopt a more sophisticated argument than – anyone who's concerned about mass immigration and its effects must hate foreigners and is a racist ****. It's much more nuanced than that.
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I wasn't dumbstruck by your post, Goldie. I just didn't immediately respond because I'd be repeating what I said last time you posted similar statistics. Anyway, here we go again. I suppose you wanted to draw attention to this ....

Black men were over 2.5 times as likely to be arrested as white men – there were 39.9 arrests for every 1,000 black men, and 15.4 arrests for every 1,000 white men

As I pointed out the last time you posted something similar, arrest statistics are fairly meaningless unless accompanied by statistics on prosecutions and convictions. Elsewhere in the YouGov notice I found this....

in 2017, the conviction ratios for Black and Mixed ethnic groups were lowest at 78.7% and 79%

If young black men are disproportionately targeted by police (as they are by Stop and Search) it's hardly surprising that there'd be more arrests among that demographic. Lower conviction rates would suggest that many of these arrests and subsequent prosecutions are specious.

As for violent crime in London, I wouldn't dispute that the culprits are likely to be disproportionately black, but this would be because gang culture in London is a predominately black phenomenon. In Manchester or Liverpool it would be predominately white. I think gang culture in general is a symptom of some young people having a feeling that they are excluded from mainstream society.

Tell me again why you don't like seeing black people in adverts?
 
Toby said:
Coming from the person that answers some ****ty 'you're in your bedroom' comments at perfectly polite questions <laugh>

I was born in Stoke Newington, I've seen London in various states throughout the years. The best were the New Labour years, the worst the Thatcher/Major years.

I work and go out regularly. If you only consume right wing news then you'll have a picture of London as a lawless hellhole, but if you actually live here you just notice it's more dirty and broken. The cause? Huge budget cuts due to Tory austerity.

Throw all the stats at me that you want at me. When I see people gleefully posting videos of a young black guy stabbing someone then linking it to immigration it makes me angry. He was most likely born here, and stuck growing up in the Tory austerity years. Poverty is a bigger cause of criminal activity than race, yet somehow the 2nd category is the one that gets blamed. I wonder why?
Click to expand...

This idea that because someone is hard up financially, it turns them into a psychopathic killer is utter nonsense. If you remember the 1970's, you'll remember that a lot of people were short of money. I was. My friends were. People didn't go around stabbing others.

The point about the guy on the train stabbing someone is that it's yet another example of extreme lawlessness. Murders, muggings, rapes and sexual assaults on women (and men) have all increased as a result of uncontrolled immigration. 1950's London was nothing like that. There were a few criminal gangs, Kray, Richardsons, but now there are numbers of ruthless gangs in every post code. I accept there undoubted benefits to careful immigration. That's been absent so far.

When Labour left office in 2010, they had by their own admission bled the coffers dry. That's why you had a ball under New Labour, but it wasn't sustainable. As Col says, if you think anything will change under Starmer, you'll be disappointed. I'll be honest, I've never seen Britain so broken. It'll take time to turn around, and will start with green shoots in the City and Services Sector which contributes the vast majority of the GDP. Not much sign yet, here or in the rest of Europe
 
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Stroller said:
I wasn't dumbstruck by your post, Goldie. I just didn't immediately respond because I'd be repeating what I said last time you posted similar statistics. Anyway, here we go again. I suppose you wanted to draw attention to this ....

Black men were over 2.5 times as likely to be arrested as white men – there were 39.9 arrests for every 1,000 black men, and 15.4 arrests for every 1,000 white men

As I pointed out the last time you posted something similar, arrest statistics are fairly meaningless unless accompanied by statistics on prosecutions and convictions. Elsewhere in the YouGov notice I found this....

in 2017, the conviction ratios for Black and Mixed ethnic groups were lowest at 78.7% and 79%

If young black men are disproportionately targeted by police (as they are by Stop and Search) it's hardly surprising that there'd be more arrests among that demographic. Lower conviction rates would suggest that many of these arrests and subsequent prosecutions are specious.

As for violent crime in London, I wouldn't dispute that the culprits are likely to be disproportionately black, but this would be because gang culture in London is a predominately black phenomenon. In Manchester or Liverpool it would be predominately white. I think gang culture in general is a symptom of some young people having a feeling that they are excluded from mainstream society.

Tell me again why you don't like seeing black people in adverts?
Click to expand...

Black or brown people in adverts are fine, and since I consider cultural misappropriation a joke, I'm good with black people playing white public figures in drama, if it's convincing. But when it becomes clear from the high number of BAME in every advert that the public is being manipulated, I have a problem. My grievance is with the advertising companies, or Khan, when a white family are shown, and he complains they don't represent London.
 
Tories considering offering a national referendum on immigration at the next GE. Could create blue water between themselves and Labour, and claw back some Reform votes.
 
Can't quite see the wording of that and how it's going to work, practically.

You can't have two separate issues ( election of a government and the topic of immigration which is hugely complex) being discussed/ voted on in one visit to a polling station.

Another not well thought out idea


Just like the nursery place idea that starts today, but with no back up on the availability of places, and the cost to the nurseries
 
qprbeth said:
Can't quite see the wording of that and how it's going to work, practically.

You can't have two separate issues ( election of a government and the topic of immigration which is hugely complex) being discussed/ voted on in one visit to a polling station.

Another not well thought out idea


Just like the nursery place idea that starts today, but with no back up on the availability of places, and the cost to the nurseries
Click to expand...

I assume the immigration referendum would be a promise in the Tory manifesto
 
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