Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Let's not beat about the bush here, this latest set of developments is purely self inflicted. Giving a tax cut to the already rich and borrowing the money to do so is not a plan. Its just greed and a form of corruption. 12 years we have had this lot, what has improved? Look at the mess we are in. Yes there have been multiple factors, covid, putin and dare I say it...brexit, add all that in on top of million pound contracts to donors, totally wasted, billions wasted on track and trace, lies, corruption and greed then its no wonder we are where we are. Would/could Labour do better? It would be ****ing difficult to do any worse that's for sure!
 
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bobmid said:
Let's not beat about the bush here, this latest set of developments is purely self inflicted. Giving a tax cut to the already rich and borrowing the money to do so is not a plan. Its just greed and a form of corruption. 12 years we have had this lot, what has improved? Look at the mess we are in. Yes there have been multiple factors, covid, putin and dare I say it...brexit, add all that in on top of million pound contracts to donors, totally wasted, billions wasted on track and trace, lies, corruption and greed then its no wonder we are where we are. Would/could Labour do better? It would be ****ing difficult to do any worse that's for sure!
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Covid allowed them and supporters to bury their heads in the sand over Brexit.

The best, however pathetic it is, they can do with this is say it’s too soon to form a conclusion and that we should all hope for the best when it’s clearly nonsense. You aren’t going to stimulate growth when ordinary people are terrified of how they’re going to find hundreds of pounds more a month just to keep a roof over their heads on top of the extra needed to heat the ****er and eat.
 
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Goldhawk-Road said:
It's interesting that business, CBI etc generally received Truss's mini-budget well, SW. There's no doubt we're in for a rough ride, as is the whole of Europe affected by the energy crisis (It's senseless those who compare the pound to the dollar, since the US has none of these pressures, indeed can make profit from the European energy crisis).

I don't know to what extent Truss may have to trim the tax cuts to satisfy international investors. But it needs calm heads, because we've been hit on energy as we were still reeling from the pandemic, lockdown, and incurring huge debts by paying businesses large amounts of money to do nothing under furlough.

And let us not forget that Kier Starmer was calling for even deeper lockdown measures.
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We buy our oil and gas in $, so it’s hardly senseless to be concerned over the weakness of the £ in comparison, it pushes inflation up. Anyway, as you note, the economy is global, we are not hermetically sealed off, no matter how many people wish this was the case.

Most countries are facing the same set of global pressures. Only this one has a government which has decided to actively make things worse. Don’t take my word, ask the markets.

Well done on trotting out Barclay’s CBI line. What Tony Danker, head of the CBI actually said was that while not putting corporation tax up was welcome, it won’t unlock growth on its own.

Other countries, even without a fantasy alternative history where Starmer was in charge, had tougher lock downs than ours. But they don’t have Truss and Kwarteng running their economies now, which I suppose is why their governments can borrow money at cheaper rates than ours can. Even the Greeks!
 
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sb_73 said:
We buy our oil and gas in $, so it’s hardly senseless to be concerned over the weakness of the £ in comparison, it pushes inflation up.

Most countries are facing the same set of global pressures. Only this one has a government which has decided to actively make things worse. Don’t take my word, ask the markets.

Well done on trotting out Barclay’s CBI line. What Tony Danker, head of the CBI actually said was that while not putting corporation tax up was welcome, it won’t unlock growth on its own.

Other countries, even without a fantasy alternative history where Starmer was in charge, had tougher lock downs than ours. But they don’t have Truss and Kwarteng running their economies now, which I suppose is why their governments can borrow money at cheaper rates than ours can. Even the Greeks!
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Re the dollar exchange rate, see my earlier reply to SW. I meant senseless in terms of judging government competence.

Interesting the way you downplay the CBI to fit your arguement. Here's what Tony Danker said, described the mini budget as a turning point for the economy.

“Like Covid, the energy crisis has meant Government has had to spend massively to protect people and businesses. That means we have no choice but to go for growth to afford it.

“Today is day one of a new UK growth approach. We must now use this opportunity to make it count and bring growth to every corner of the UK. Fifteen years of anaemic growth cannot be repeated.

“Taking action to get Britain’s economy moving again by beginning construction on transport and green infrastructure projects shows immediate delivery. Planning reform is long overdue.”
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
Re the dollar exchange rate, see my earlier reply to SW. I meant senseless in terms of judging government competence.

Interesting the way you downplay the CBI to fit your arguement. Here's what Tony Danker said, described the mini budget as a turning point for the economy.

“Like Covid, the energy crisis has meant Government has had to spend massively to protect people and businesses. That means we have no choice but to go for growth to afford it.

“Today is day one of a new UK growth approach. We must now use this opportunity to make it count and bring growth to every corner of the UK. Fifteen years of anaemic growth cannot be repeated.

“Taking action to get Britain’s economy moving again by beginning construction on transport and green infrastructure projects shows immediate delivery. Planning reform is long overdue.”
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Well, Danker was 100% right, it really has been a turning point for the economy. I stand corrected, shows where taking a clip from the Independent can lead you.

What is the metric (%GDP)* and timescale for delivering growth?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-growth-plan-2022-documents/the-growth-plan-2022-html
Have you read this? I can’t find the section where it details the impact that the tax and other changes will have. There is one theoretical table on growth impact on tax revenue but that is described as purely illustrative and not an assessment of the policies set out.



*2.5% I can’t find when this will be delivered by though, which is kind of important. Best way to achieve high growth is of course to shut the economy down and then reboot it, we had massive growth after lockdowns were lifted - from an incredibly low base. But as the governments own paper notes, all the growth figures for the last 25 years have been worse under the last 12 years of Torydom, so not holding out much hope.
 
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sb_73 said:
, all the growth figures for the last 25 years have been worse under the last 12 years of Torydom, so not holding out much hope.
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Not excusing all Tory economic inaction, but those 12 years started soon after the 2008 crash where the economy was in a really poor state. After a short period of austerity, we get the pandemic and Ukraine war.

Which major European countries' economies are thriving? Germany? It's predicted to fall into recession next year. France, little better
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
Not excusing all Tory economic inaction, but those 12 years started soon after the 2008 crash where the economy was in a really poor state. After a short period of austerity, we get the pandemic and Ukraine war.

Which major European countries' economies are thriving? Germany? It's predicted to fall into recession next year. France, little better
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Where did I say thriving? Everywhere is suffering, but mostly less than us. That’s why the international community is getting concerned about Truss’ ****storm, in case they are dragged into the same cesspit. France (even with retirement - for now - at 62) and Germany are still much more productive than the U.K.

I added a bit to my post. Any idea when the growth is going to be delivered by?
 
sb_73 said:
Where did I say thriving? Everywhere is suffering, but mostly less than us. That’s why the international community is getting concerned about Truss’ ****storm, in case they are dragged into the same cesspit. France (even with retirement - for now - at 62) and Germany are still much more productive than the U.K.

I added a bit to my post. Any idea when the growth is going to be delivered by?
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I wasn't quoting you on "thriving". Don't be so defensive!

The Truss investment market issue will be transitory. Productivity is a huge deal, I agree. With an energy crisis, I would predict Germany with its reliance on manufacturing (and former reliance on Russian gas) will fare worse than the UK with a services based economy. We'll see.

But the UK has to modernise, and whether Tory or Labour, government will have to cut some of the unworkable practices so loved by trade unions. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
… But the UK has to modernise, and whether Tory or Labour, government will have to cut some of the unworkable practices so loved by trade unions. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
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I think you do the majority of UK businesses an injustice there Goldie.

I think many businesses, of many different sizes, have undertaken improvements in working practices over the last 10-15 years Goldie. Modernisation is a different story though. I have seen a lot of assets sweated, rather than updated, to maximise profits and create opportunity to sell-on seemingly strong businesses. The shop-floor staff know what’s going on but want to keep their jobs. Those same staff are keen to be involved in improvements in working practices too in my experience. They may, however, be more protective now we have been put in this economic mess.
 
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Goldhawk-Road said:
Wow, some hysterical posts on here atm :emoticon-0100-smile

An inauspicious to Truss's premiership. Kwartang failing to keep the markets informed and promising more tax cuts in November does not lead to investor confidence.

Sunak must be drinking a glass of schadenfreude as we speak. His view that borrowing for tax cuts is unwise is proving to be right.

The markets are settling with BoE intervention (who should have raised interest rates before now anyway). Truss needs to up her game and restore market confidence. She and Kwartang need to share their thinking with investors. At the end of the day what the UK needs is a vast improvement in productivity
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The spittal soaked screeching of all the Tory haters, especially in the media and on social media have undoubtedly thrown fuel onto the fire. The left wing IMF being another example of this.
The Bank of England have been culpable in a lot of this, being totally reactive instead of proactive.
There needs to be a change in Governor there pronto.

The Government read the room badly and went too extreme, to quickly.
However, they'd have been hammered by Stan and all the usual suspects whatever they'd have done.
 
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rangercol said:
The spittal soaked screeching of all the Tory haters, especially in the media and on social media have undoubtedly thrown fuel onto the fire. The left wing IMF being another example of this.
The Bank of England have been culpable in a lot of this, being totally reactive instead of proactive.
There needs to be a change in Governor there pronto.

The Government read the room badly and went too extreme, to quickly.
However, they'd have been hammered by Stan and all the usual suspects whatever they'd have done.
Click to expand...

The famously left wing city traders, gilts and currency markets are probably in on it too.
 
rangercol said:
The spittal soaked screeching of all the Tory haters, especially in the media and on social media have undoubtedly thrown fuel onto the fire. The left wing IMF being another example of this.
The Bank of England have been culpable in a lot of this, being totally reactive instead of proactive.
There needs to be a change in Governor there pronto.

The Government read the room badly and went too extreme, to quickly.
However, they'd have been hammered by Stan and all the usual suspects whatever they'd have done.
Click to expand...
Not sure they would have been hammered if they had put the money where it was really needed instead of the already rich and the bankers mate. I'm sure it will be somebody else's fault though. Always is.
 
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rangercol said:
The spittal soaked screeching of all the Tory haters, especially in the media and on social media have undoubtedly thrown fuel onto the fire. The left wing IMF being another example of this.
The Bank of England have been culpable in a lot of this, being totally reactive instead of proactive.
There needs to be a change in Governor there pronto.

The Government read the room badly and went too extreme, to quickly.
However, they'd have been hammered by Stan and all the usual suspects whatever they'd have done.
Click to expand...

<doh>

The UK central bank had to intervene massively to protect the UK economy from the actual UK government, for ****'s sake.

Stll, they're doing their best aren't they?
 
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