Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

I'm just pleased that if the Tories are throwing bungs out (as is the way of all govts), they are finally throwing them out to earners rather than pensioners.

£ sinks to another low, $1.11, post Kwarteng announcement, so the fat cat ‘earners’ despite benefitting directly from the bungs don’t seem to think it’s going to work.

Tories will keep the pensioners happy, they can’t afford not to, it’s their core support block.

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

£ sinks to another low, $1.11, post Kwarteng announcement, so the fat cat ‘earners’ despite benefitting directly from the bungs don’t seem to think it’s going to work.

Tories will keep the pensioners happy, they can’t afford not to, it’s their core support block.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think it will work either. I'm just glad it's money for wage earners not pensioners. Down with the triple lock next...

 

[sb_73]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think it will work either. I'm just glad it's money for wage earners not pensioners. Down with the triple lock next...

Quite like it myself. Or will do in five years time…..

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

Quite like it myself. Or will do in five years time…..

 

[rangercol]

Simon Clarke, Secretary of State for ‘Levelling Up’ (me neither), promises an instant benefit in terms of growth from todays tax cutting bonanza on the wireless just now. Of course it will be difficult to measure this when you don’t allow independent organisations set up by the government to analyse economic policy, ie the OBR, to do any analysis of the policies.

Fun hearing him tell why a rise in NI was the right policy 3 months ago, but evil and anti conservative now. And that the election victory of a different leader with a radically different policy platform in 2019 equates to a strong mandate for Truss and her loyal band of walking dead.

It’s all guess work anyway. If there is a cut to stamp duty I’ll benefit because I’m moving house soon. Frankly I’d prefer to be incentivised to put solar panels on the new place, which would be helped by banks and other financial institutions actually passing on interest rate rises to savers as well as instantly levying them on borrowers. ****ing crooks.

Not sure you'll ever agree with anything a Tory government does, with good justification overall.
Just heard different so called "experts" completely disagreeing on the latest financial measures.
One agreed with you concerning the evils of trickle down etc, the other said the measures were what was needed, as we desperately need growth in the economy.
I've no idea who's right as neither political party ever seems to get it right.

What measures would you approve of and which political party could deliver it?

 

[rangercol]

I'm just pleased that if the Tories are throwing bungs out (as is the way of all govts), they are finally throwing them out to earners rather than pensioners.

Yeah.....we're all selfish with these things.
My partner's mum has just come home from a care home following a long stay having suffered a stroke.
With the care and related benefits system ****ed, we'd like her pension to increase as much as possible and bollocks to those earning.
We'd also like interest rates to continue to rise and bollocks to those with a mortgage.

That's a bit how your post came across.

 

[rangercol]

£ sinks to another low, $1.11, post Kwarteng announcement, so the fat cat ‘earners’ despite benefitting directly from the bungs don’t seem to think it’s going to work.

Tories will keep the pensioners happy, they can’t afford not to, it’s their core support block.

Good!

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Not sure you'll ever agree with anything a Tory government does, with good justification overall.
Just heard different so called "experts" completely disagreeing on the latest financial measures.
One agreed with you concerning the evils of trickle down etc, the other said the measures were what was needed, as we desperately need growth in the economy.
I've no idea who's right as neither political party ever seems to get it right.

What measures would you approve of and which political party could deliver it?

Pretty reasonable bet that cutting taxes for the highest earners during the worst period of inflation for a generation isn’t a great thing for anyone apart from the few hundred thousand it directly benefits, who don’t need help and overwhelmingly vote Tory.

We could have had a windfall tax a la The EU but that wouldn’t have gone down well with donors or the core Tory vote. We could have increased the tax burden on the richest 1% rather than doing the opposite, but likewise. Could have built more social housing rather than a stamp duty cut which again benefits the wealthier.

Feel free to keep burying your head in the sand though.

 

[rangercol]

Pretty reasonable bet that cutting taxes for the highest earners during the worst period of inflation for a generation isn’t a great thing for anyone apart from the few hundred thousand it directly benefits, who don’t need help and overwhelmingly vote Tory.

We could have had a windfall tax a la The EU but that wouldn’t have gone down well with donors or the core Tory vote. We could have increased the tax burden on the richest 1% rather than doing the opposite, but likewise. Could have built more social housing rather than a stamp duty cut which again benefits the wealthier.

Feel free to keep burying your head in the sand though.

Has tax not been cut for everyone on the 20% band to 19%?
Genuine question as I don't claim to be an expert like you and others.

Oh...and I'm not burying my head in the ****ing sand.

 

[rangercol]

Pretty reasonable bet that cutting taxes for the highest earners during the worst period of inflation for a generation isn’t a great thing for anyone apart from the few hundred thousand it directly benefits, who don’t need help and overwhelmingly vote Tory.

We could have had a windfall tax a la The EU but that wouldn’t have gone down well with donors or the core Tory vote. We could have increased the tax burden on the richest 1% rather than doing the opposite, but likewise. Could have built more social housing rather than a stamp duty cut which again benefits the wealthier.

Feel free to keep burying your head in the sand though.

What part of my post to Stan suggested I was burying my head in the sand?
I clearly said that I didn't know who was right.

 

[Stroller]

What part of my post to Stan suggested I was burying my head in the sand?
I clearly said that I didn't know who was right.

Work it out.

When people will be starving and freezing this winter and the NHS is on its knees, do you think it's a good idea to be giving money away to the richest in society?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Work it out.

When people will be starving and freezing this winter and the NHS is on its knees, do you think it's a good idea to be giving money away to the richest in society?

The talent is surely to get the economy driving forward, while maintaining a safety net for those at the bottom of the income scale. Economists can't agree on the Tories' latest measures (what a surprise). Time alone will tell.

 

[sb_73]

Not sure you'll ever agree with anything a Tory government does, with good justification overall.
Just heard different so called "experts" completely disagreeing on the latest financial measures.
One agreed with you concerning the evils of trickle down etc, the other said the measures were what was needed, as we desperately need growth in the economy.
I've no idea who's right as neither political party ever seems to get it right.

What measures would you approve of and which political party could deliver it?

It’s a fair question, but I’m the wrong person to ask as I’m no fan of the fundamentals of market economies, they seem anti human to me.

But I’m also not (quite) an idiot and recognise that this isn’t going to change and I’m not going to do anything about it…..

….so, pragmatically, I would prefer a much more Keynesian approach to the monetarist one Truss is adopting. I just don’t believe that ‘free’ markets somehow magically self regulate leading to low inflation, decent wages and full employment. And history would tend to back this view up. So some managed intervention by government, especially in investment, price control etc. I don’t care which party does it, and the Tories just as much as Labour used this approach until Thatcher, it’s not ideologically impossible for them. We forget that until the late seventies we had full employment in this country, and the gap between rich and poor was much narrower - a consequence of all post war governments following basically the same course. I’m not pretending Keynesian economics is perfect, far from it, but it seems more humane than the alternative.

I actually think the action already taken on energy prices is the right thing to do - in spirit at least, I’m sure there are alternative ways to manage this - and this will have the biggest impact on the short term issue, inflation.

‘Trickle down economics’ isn’t necessarily evil, but the way it is presented as the answer to making us all richer is false. It won’t. It makes the already rich much richer. Some indicators will show this as economic growth, but if we don’t all benefit from this so called ‘growth’ it’s a redundant claim, in my view.

The scariest longer term thing is the level of government borrowing, at what is now a very expensive time to borrow because of interest rates - I’ve read an extra £100bn a year essentially forever. And this borrowing is against a lower tax take (idiocy to claim otherwise if you are cutting taxes) and seems to be in order to pay for day to day commitments - doing away with the NI rise but still promising the cash to the NHS and social care seems reckless to me and pretty unTory as well. Borrowing to invest, which has some return, is something else. If I borrow to build an extension it feels reasonable, if I borrow to buy food you know it’s not sustainable.

Sorry for droning on. No real answers but I’m not anti Tory for the sake of it, or in a knee jerk way. And you just have to wait until we have another flavour government to see how I comment on them. As I’ve said on here before I don’t vote and can’t ever see me voting in the future, but that doesn’t mean I’m disengaged.

 

[Stroller]

The talent is surely to get the economy driving forward, while maintaining a safety net for those at the bottom of the income scale. Economists can't agree on the Tories' latest measures (what a surprise). Time alone will tell.

It's not just about opinions, the historical evidence of trickle-down is that it makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Has tax not been cut for everyone on the 20% band to 19%?
Genuine question as I don't claim to be an expert like you and others.

Oh...and I'm not burying my head in the ****ing sand.

As an expert, it’s a tax cut for the rich paid for by borrowing i.e. peasants. You can mince around pretending there’s not a consensus of opinion because they’ve dragged some Minford-esque nonce out in the name of balance but it’s nonsense. The Prime Minister and Chancellor literally wrote a book on it.

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

Yeah.....we're all selfish with these things.
My partner's mum has just come home from a care home following a long stay having suffered a stroke.
With the care and related benefits system ****ed, we'd like her pension to increase as much as possible and bollocks to those earning.
We'd also like interest rates to continue to rise and bollocks to those with a mortgage.

That's a bit how your post came across.

That's sort of my point and it was supposed to come across a little selfish - for years and years the focus has been on pensioners at the expense of all others - sure start, child benefit, rising tax burden on middle earners etc etc. It's hard not to see that happen as an earner and not be frustrated as the disparity in taxation between wealth and income has grown and grown. For the first time in a long time the shoe is on the other foot. I don't think it's smart policy but it's nice to be the recipient of a handout for once.

Sorry to hear about your partner's mum.

 

[stanleyparkerbowles]

Spooking the markets and putting the pound on parity with the euro and dollar is not going to help inflation

 

[rangercol]

As an expert, it’s a tax cut for the rich paid for by borrowing i.e. peasants. You can mince around pretending there’s not a consensus of opinion because they’ve dragged some Minford-esque nonce out in the name of balance but it’s nonsense. The Prime Minister and Chancellor literally wrote a book on it.

So anyone paying 20% tax is rich?

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

So anyone paying 20% tax is rich?

It’s crumbs for those who predominantly pay 20% compared to a big slice of cake for those who were paying a big chunk at 45%. The 20% reduction is designed to make working class Tory mugs feel richer and not question the 45%.

 

[rangercol]

As an expert, it’s a tax cut for the rich paid for by borrowing i.e. peasants. You can mince around pretending there’s not a consensus of opinion because they’ve dragged some Minford-esque nonce out in the name of balance but it’s nonsense. The Prime Minister and Chancellor literally wrote a book on it.

When did I say there's a consensus of opinion?