Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Staines R's]

It's an interesting one isn't it, Stainsey? Personally, I think people do move up a class, but retain the affinity with their former class that Strolls mentioned. But then, they have to take care if they lecture their former class or believe they have a better idea of what's good for that class than those currently within it do.

My best mate and I talk about this quite often down the pub (often after I’ve gone into one of my ‘workers rights’ rants), when he says the same as you to an extent and says that I can’t now consider myself working class because of my current circumstances....whereas I argue that I will always be working class and proud of the fact that what I’ve achieved is entirely due to the fact I worked for it.
Maybe, as him and I theorised, there is no longer and old system with working, middle, upper classes and more a ‘work for what you’ve got/ get given what you’ve got’ system in place now ?
I really don’t know.....as I said before, it all gets very complex

 

[Sooperhoop]

I know a few mates who were posted to Croydon from my training course.......it’s like a ****ing war zone there.

It's been escalating in the last 3 months, this is the 3rd or 4th murder in a half mile area since the summer with tit for tat attacks. Postcode warfare...

 

[Staines R's]

It's been escalating in the last 3 months, this is the 3rd or 4th murder in a half mile area since the summer with tit for tat attacks. Postcode warfare...

Can’t wait to defund the police and finish ‘stop and search’......that’ll sort it out

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

My best mate and I talk about this quite often down the pub (often after I’ve gone into one of my ‘workers rights’ rants), when he says the same as you to an extent and says that I can’t now consider myself working class because of my current circumstances....whereas I argue that I will always be working class and proud of the fact that what I’ve achieved is entirely due to the fact I worked for it.
Maybe, as him and I theorised, there is no longer and old system with working, middle, upper classes and more a ‘work for what you’ve got/ get given what you’ve got’ system in place now ?
I really don’t know.....as I said before, it all gets very complex

I think the middle class has expanded a great deal, taking ground from working class and aristocracy. One issue is whether immigrants that come into the country now - for example those that presently occupy the East End of London - can be considered working class to replace the more traditional English working class. After all, the old East End of the 1960's, and all the folklore over the Kray twins etc was European, Irish, Jewish etc. So are Asians now replacing them, ready to move up the class rungs themselves. As you say, complex...

 

[Staines R's]

I think the middle class has expanded a great deal, taking ground from working class and aristocracy. One issue is whether immigrants that come into the country now - for example those that presently occupy the East End of London - can be considered working class to replace the more traditional English working class. After all, the old East End of the 1960's, and all the folklore over the Kray twins etc was European, Irish, Jewish etc. So are Asians now replacing them, ready to move up the class rungs themselves. As you say, complex...

Very good point.....and one that I think holds truth. After all, I would count the asians and West Indians, like my father in law, who came here in the 60’s to do jobs that couldn’t be filled by the native population as working class.....Embery does talk about it in his book when answering his critics who assume that when he talks of ‘working class’ he means WHITE working class....to which he denies. I guess it’s just the same happening again.

 

[Steelmonkey]

My best mate and I talk about this quite often down the pub (often after I’ve gone into one of my ‘workers rights’ rants), when he says the same as you to an extent and says that I can’t now consider myself working class because of my current circumstances....whereas I argue that I will always be working class and proud of the fact that what I’ve achieved is entirely due to the fact I worked for it.
Maybe, as him and I theorised, there is no longer and old system with working, middle, upper classes and more a ‘work for what you’ve got/ get given what you’ve got’ system in place now ?
I really don’t know.....as I said before, it all gets very complex

A few years ago I read an article stating that there are now seven classes...Just found it...

Huge survey reveals seven social classes in UK
Published
3 April 2013
Share

You must log in or register to see images

image captionPrevious definitions of social class are considered to be outdated
People in the UK now fit into seven social classes, a major survey conducted by the BBC suggests.

It says the traditional categories of working, middle and upper class are outdated, fitting 39% of people.

It found a new model of seven social classes ranging from the elite at the top to a "precariat" - the poor, precarious proletariat - at the bottom.

More than 161,000 people took part in the Great British Class Survey, the largest study of class in the UK.

Class has traditionally been defined by occupation, wealth and education. But this research argues that this is too simplistic, suggesting that class has three dimensions - economic, social and cultural.

The BBC Lab UK study measured economic capital - income, savings, house value - and social capital - the number and status of people someone knows.

The study also measured cultural capital, defined as the extent and nature of cultural interests and activities.

The new classes are defined as:

• Elite - the most privileged group in the UK, distinct from the other six classes through its wealth. This group has the highest levels of all three capitals

• Established middle class - the second wealthiest, scoring highly on all three capitals. The largest and most gregarious group, scoring second highest for cultural capital

• Technical middle class - a small, distinctive new class group which is prosperous but scores low for social and cultural capital. Distinguished by its social isolation and cultural apathy

• New affluent workers - a young class group which is socially and culturally active, with middling levels of economic capital

• Traditional working class - scores low on all forms of capital, but is not completely deprived. Its members have reasonably high house values, explained by this group having the oldest average age at 66

• Emergent service workers - a new, young, urban group which is relatively poor but has high social and cultural capital

• Precariat, or precarious proletariat - the poorest, most deprived class, scoring low for social and cultural capital

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22007058

I would definately put myself in the working class bracket of old, physical manual job, paid weekly and have worked my nuts off for years - I'm not rich, but I'm not poor either (as long as I have work - problem of being a contractor), have my own house (mortgaged) and a flat that I rent out and that I own outright. I've received nothing from anyone, all paid for out of my own graft. Definately have what you would call working class values, and have tried to instill these within my son too.

My sister, however, bought up the same but is definately middle class now - husband works in the city, has a much larger property than I could ever own, and looks down her nose at my behaviour!

 

[BobbyD]

A few years ago I read an article stating that there are now seven classes...Just found it...

Huge survey reveals seven social classes in UK
Published
3 April 2013
Share

You must log in or register to see images

image captionPrevious definitions of social class are considered to be outdated
People in the UK now fit into seven social classes, a major survey conducted by the BBC suggests.

It says the traditional categories of working, middle and upper class are outdated, fitting 39% of people.

It found a new model of seven social classes ranging from the elite at the top to a "precariat" - the poor, precarious proletariat - at the bottom.

More than 161,000 people took part in the Great British Class Survey, the largest study of class in the UK.

Class has traditionally been defined by occupation, wealth and education. But this research argues that this is too simplistic, suggesting that class has three dimensions - economic, social and cultural.

The BBC Lab UK study measured economic capital - income, savings, house value - and social capital - the number and status of people someone knows.

The study also measured cultural capital, defined as the extent and nature of cultural interests and activities.

The new classes are defined as:

• Elite - the most privileged group in the UK, distinct from the other six classes through its wealth. This group has the highest levels of all three capitals

• Established middle class - the second wealthiest, scoring highly on all three capitals. The largest and most gregarious group, scoring second highest for cultural capital

• Technical middle class - a small, distinctive new class group which is prosperous but scores low for social and cultural capital. Distinguished by its social isolation and cultural apathy

• New affluent workers - a young class group which is socially and culturally active, with middling levels of economic capital

• Traditional working class - scores low on all forms of capital, but is not completely deprived. Its members have reasonably high house values, explained by this group having the oldest average age at 66

• Emergent service workers - a new, young, urban group which is relatively poor but has high social and cultural capital

• Precariat, or precarious proletariat - the poorest, most deprived class, scoring low for social and cultural capital

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22007058

I would definately put myself in the working class bracket of old, physical manual job, paid weekly and have worked my nuts off for years - I'm not rich, but I'm not poor either (as long as I have work - problem of being a contractor), have my own house (mortgaged) and a flat that I rent out and that I own outright. I've received nothing from anyone, all paid for out of my own graft. Definately have what you would call working class values, and have tried to instill these within my son too.

My sister, however, bought up the same but is definately middle class now - husband works in the city, has a much larger property than I could ever own, and looks down her nose at my behaviour!

2 properties must put you in the middle class bracket surely steels? Welcome to the middle club

 

[Staines R's]

A few years ago I read an article stating that there are now seven classes...Just found it...

Huge survey reveals seven social classes in UK
Published
3 April 2013
Share

You must log in or register to see images

image captionPrevious definitions of social class are considered to be outdated
People in the UK now fit into seven social classes, a major survey conducted by the BBC suggests.

It says the traditional categories of working, middle and upper class are outdated, fitting 39% of people.

It found a new model of seven social classes ranging from the elite at the top to a "precariat" - the poor, precarious proletariat - at the bottom.

More than 161,000 people took part in the Great British Class Survey, the largest study of class in the UK.

Class has traditionally been defined by occupation, wealth and education. But this research argues that this is too simplistic, suggesting that class has three dimensions - economic, social and cultural.

The BBC Lab UK study measured economic capital - income, savings, house value - and social capital - the number and status of people someone knows.

The study also measured cultural capital, defined as the extent and nature of cultural interests and activities.

The new classes are defined as:

• Elite - the most privileged group in the UK, distinct from the other six classes through its wealth. This group has the highest levels of all three capitals

• Established middle class - the second wealthiest, scoring highly on all three capitals. The largest and most gregarious group, scoring second highest for cultural capital

• Technical middle class - a small, distinctive new class group which is prosperous but scores low for social and cultural capital. Distinguished by its social isolation and cultural apathy

• New affluent workers - a young class group which is socially and culturally active, with middling levels of economic capital

• Traditional working class - scores low on all forms of capital, but is not completely deprived. Its members have reasonably high house values, explained by this group having the oldest average age at 66

• Emergent service workers - a new, young, urban group which is relatively poor but has high social and cultural capital

• Precariat, or precarious proletariat - the poorest, most deprived class, scoring low for social and cultural capital

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22007058

I would definately put myself in the working class bracket of old, physical manual job, paid weekly and have worked my nuts off for years - I'm not rich, but I'm not poor either (as long as I have work - problem of being a contractor), have my own house (mortgaged) and a flat that I rent out and that I own outright. I've received nothing from anyone, all paid for out of my own graft. Definately have what you would call working class values, and have tried to instill these within my son too.

My sister, however, bought up the same but is definately middle class now - husband works in the city, has a much larger property than I could ever own, and looks down her nose at my behaviour!

Ive only skimmed the article as just got back from a run but I’ll look properly later and work out where I am.
I’ve been reading also about how Labours support now comes more from the ABC1 (occupational middle class) than the traditional C2DE (occupational working class)...the latter now feeling more akin to the Tories.

 

[Staines R's]

A few years ago I read an article stating that there are now seven classes...Just found it...

Huge survey reveals seven social classes in UK
Published
3 April 2013
Share

You must log in or register to see images

image captionPrevious definitions of social class are considered to be outdated
People in the UK now fit into seven social classes, a major survey conducted by the BBC suggests.

It says the traditional categories of working, middle and upper class are outdated, fitting 39% of people.

It found a new model of seven social classes ranging from the elite at the top to a "precariat" - the poor, precarious proletariat - at the bottom.

More than 161,000 people took part in the Great British Class Survey, the largest study of class in the UK.

Class has traditionally been defined by occupation, wealth and education. But this research argues that this is too simplistic, suggesting that class has three dimensions - economic, social and cultural.

The BBC Lab UK study measured economic capital - income, savings, house value - and social capital - the number and status of people someone knows.

The study also measured cultural capital, defined as the extent and nature of cultural interests and activities.

The new classes are defined as:

• Elite - the most privileged group in the UK, distinct from the other six classes through its wealth. This group has the highest levels of all three capitals

• Established middle class - the second wealthiest, scoring highly on all three capitals. The largest and most gregarious group, scoring second highest for cultural capital

• Technical middle class - a small, distinctive new class group which is prosperous but scores low for social and cultural capital. Distinguished by its social isolation and cultural apathy

• New affluent workers - a young class group which is socially and culturally active, with middling levels of economic capital

• Traditional working class - scores low on all forms of capital, but is not completely deprived. Its members have reasonably high house values, explained by this group having the oldest average age at 66

• Emergent service workers - a new, young, urban group which is relatively poor but has high social and cultural capital

• Precariat, or precarious proletariat - the poorest, most deprived class, scoring low for social and cultural capital

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22007058

I would definately put myself in the working class bracket of old, physical manual job, paid weekly and have worked my nuts off for years - I'm not rich, but I'm not poor either (as long as I have work - problem of being a contractor), have my own house (mortgaged) and a flat that I rent out and that I own outright. I've received nothing from anyone, all paid for out of my own graft. Definately have what you would call working class values, and have tried to instill these within my son too.

My sister, however, bought up the same but is definately middle class now - husband works in the city, has a much larger property than I could ever own, and looks down her nose at my behaviour!

Just looked through....really interesting.
Well I guess I fill the traditional working class bracket, unskilled white collar work.however I have a large amount of money to hand now (about £160k) due to an inheritance from my mum who died a few years ago.....so does that push me up into more the middle class bracket...but then I don’t really fit into that bracket either

 

[Sooperhoop]

My sister, however, bought up the same but is definately middle class now - husband works in the city, has a much larger property than I could ever own, and looks down her nose at my behaviour!

Very similar to me. My sister is 7 years older and benefited from the first housing boom in the 70s which I was just too late for. She lives in Selsdon which is in the leafy south of the borough whereas I'm in South Norwood which is in the feral north of the borough. She avoided the sex and drugs and rock 'n roll that plagued me but I guess I had a lot more fun...

 

[QPR Oslo]

Class is a load of old b***** for me, died decades ago. Have or have nots, rich and poor + some getting by, club or economy but class no.

 

[Steelmonkey]

2 properties must put you in the middle class bracket surely steels? Welcome to the middle club

I'm self employed, and have a very meagre pension-pot but have ploughed all my savings into property - bricks and mortar will always be worth something when I need it, and if I don't then it's something solid to pass on to my son when the time is right.

If you ever met me Bobby, you'd definately not put me in the middle class bracket

 

[Stroller]

Adele would agree with you! Wealthy but insists she's resolutely working class.

I accept it does depend on someone's roots and I'm not making this personal. But it becomes more problematic when a successful person's circumstances move upwards so that the only their state of mind remains working class. As opposed to others who have all the characteristics of working class - rented home, weekly wage, physical job, sometimes just about managing etc. Then those who are working class in mind only, must surely take care about lecturing those that are working class in their daily circumstances. I'm not being critical of anyone here. Just putting forward the theory

It's an interesting one isn't it, Stainsey? Personally, I think people do move up a class, but retain the affinity with their former class that Strolls mentioned. But then, they have to take care if they lecture their former class or believe they have a better idea of what's good for that class than those currently within it do.

No one's lecturing anyone. If working class people want to vote Tory, they can. I just think they're fools if they do so, because they'll just **** them over as they always have. The so-called 'red wall' voters who abandoned Labour to get Brexit done are the biggest fools because the Tories are already preparing to water down workers' rights formerly protected under the EU.

Class doesn't matter anyway, I only mentioned that I considered myself working class because you and Stainesy seemed to be suggesting that as someone from the 'liberal elite', I couldn't possibly understand what the working class want.

 

[Staines R's]

Class is a load of old b***** for me, died decades ago. Have or have nots, rich and poor + some getting by, club or economy but class no.

I always travelled Club.....never got to first though

 

[Staines R's]

No one's lecturing anyone. If working class people want to vote Tory, they can. I just think they're fools if they do so, because they'll just **** them over as they always have. The so-called 'red wall' voters who abandoned Labour to get Brexit done are the biggest fools because the Tories are already preparing to water down workers' rights formerly protected under the EU.

Class doesn't matter anyway, I only mentioned that I considered myself working class because you and Stainesy seemed to be suggesting that as someone from the 'liberal elite', I couldn't possibly understand what the working class want.

Eh ? Where did I say that Strolls. If you think I said that then you might of misunderstood.
I do however think the ‘liberal elite’ (whoever they might be) look down on the working class......let’s be honest, with some of the comments in here it proves the point.

 

[BobbyD]

I'm self employed, and have a very meagre pension-pot but have ploughed all my savings into property - bricks and mortar will always be worth something when I need it, and if I don't then it's something solid to pass on to my son when the time is right.

If you ever met me Bobby, you'd definately not put me in the middle class bracket

oh, i'm sure personality wise you're still working class. Finance wise you are very much middle class though

i'm typical working class background but i guess i am not elevated to a middle class level now on finances. I was the council house kid (well until 6) then i lived in a restaurant. I was the kid with odd socks or sometimes no socks and hand me downs from my siblings.

 

[Staines R's]

oh, i'm sure personality wise you're still working class. Finance wise you are very much middle class though

i'm typical working class background but i guess i am not elevated to a middle class level now on finances. I was the council house kid (well until 6) then i lived in a restaurant. I was the kid with odd socks or sometimes no socks and hand me downs from my siblings.

Ahhh...the advantage of being the eldest child

 

[BobbyD]

No one's lecturing anyone. If working class people want to vote Tory, they can. I just think they're fools if they do so, because they'll just **** them over as they always have. The so-called 'red wall' voters who abandoned Labour to get Brexit done are the biggest fools because the Tories are already preparing to water down workers' rights formerly protected under the EU.

Class doesn't matter anyway, I only mentioned that I considered myself working class because you and Stainesy seemed to be suggesting that as someone from the 'liberal elite', I couldn't possibly understand what the working class want.

A lot of the minority working class i know vote Tory because they are misled by the headlines of benefit cheats that will occur in our welfare system and any wastage that happens. It's an emotive subject and obviously is one that gets on the groats of a lot of people but when people see tax spending being spent willy nilly, then they'd rather vote tory. I can understand this and generally i don't like frivolous spending but i can also see benefits are probably at an all time squeeze right now and need relaxing.

The thing i don't like about this tory incarnation (in my opinion) is the lies and flip flopping and populism as well as the cronyism which is even worse than benefit fraud. I guess i'm lucky though in the sense that i'm fine financially so if taxes go up it's not a big issue for me (and also i don't need benefits) and i'm not a i need to have more wealth/more materials/more designer type of person so i'm fine to pay some extra taxes (unless it gets blown on tory mates)

 

[BobbyD]

Ahhh...the advantage of being the eldest child

lol, i'm happy being the younger ones. Less responsibility on helping my mum with her admin and my mums child labour of me began when i was around 14 when my family was slightly better off. I believe my siblings started younger!

 

[rangercol]

I find this idea that manual workers are "working class" very misleading.
Most plumbers, brick layers and carpenters earn what would be considered "middle class" wages.