Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Star of David Bardsley]

We've only just had one haven't we? And the current government can only function with the support of a bunch of religious fundamentalists. I reckon the next government will be another coalition, with Labour as the biggest party.

The Tories have had a majority in two years of the last 20+ and used them to throw the country into chaos and **** themselves over for a generation. People are terrified of Corbyn because they’ve swallowed the Sun and Mail for years it’s now become obscene to suggest he isn’t extreme. The people who used Brexit as an anti-Cameron vote have been ****ed over by successive Tory and Tory-lite governments for decades.

 

[Staines R's]

Certainly not. I would like to see a radical Labour government implementing the manifesto that Labour ran on in the last GE, but I also want Britain to remain in the EU, seeking to reform it. Maybe those wishes are incompatible. If they are, a Labour government is more important to me than remaining in the EU.

That’s my point Strolls. I don’t think you can have it both ways.
In my opinion, you have two choices, either a radical Left Wing Labour Party who are willing to implement true Left Wing policies such as leaving the EU and renationalising of certain industries under leaders such as Corbyn and McDonnell, or a more
Liberal ‘slightly left of centre’ Labour Party who are willing to pander to big business and make concessions to the rich, under people such as Watson.
A lot of people were brought back to the Labour Party after Corbyn become leader ‘cos they saw the possibility of the former, and I honestly believe many will leave if they see the latter.

 

[sb_73]

That’s my point Strolls. I don’t think you can have it both ways.
In my opinion, you have two choices, either a radical Left Wing Labour Party who are willing to implement true Left Wing policies such as leaving the EU and renationalising of certain industries under leaders such as Corbyn and McDonnell, or a more
Liberal ‘slightly left of centre’ Labour Party who are willing to pander to big business and make concessions to the rich, under people such as Watson.
A lot of people were brought back to the Labour Party after Corbyn become leader ‘cos they saw the possibility of the former, and I honestly believe many will leave if they see the latter.

But the Labour Party has always been a loose coalition between the hardish left and the centre left. Those on either wing who couldn’t stomach it after a bit always had the Communists/SWP or the SDP/Libs to turn to. Of course some of the ‘hard’ left explicitly use the Labour Party through ‘entryism’ to insinuate their agenda into the mainstream, as they know they could never democratically achieve this standing for a fringe party. At least with Corbyn this is all more explicit and up front. But he has hamstrung himself by going on about ‘democracy’ in the party and insisting that policy is set by the members, 88% of whom want to remain in the EU. Which, as you rightly point out, is anathema to the true hard ‘socialism in one country’ left. Catch 22 for Corbyn, Milne and their cronys.

All this democracy forelock tugging is bullshit of course. The true hard left know that parliamentary democracy is a bourgeois con to be used to seize power and then dumped, believe they have historical inevitability on their side, soon they will be able to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat, purge their enemies and chant ‘four legs good, two legs bad’ endlessly while behaving exactly the same as the last generation of oppressors, except more so.

I fear the statist, authoritarian left just as much as the authoritarian right. Now the libertarian left, which is much lighter on doctrine and dogma, is another matter......

 

[Staines R's]

But the Labour Party has always been a loose coalition between the hardish left and the centre left. Those on either wing who couldn’t stomach it after a bit always had the Communists/SWP or the SDP/Libs to turn to. Of course some of the ‘hard’ left explicitly use the Labour Party through ‘entryism’ to insinuate their agenda into the mainstream, as they know they could never democratically achieve this standing for a fringe party. At least with Corbyn this is all more explicit and up front. But he has hamstrung himself by going on about ‘democracy’ in the party and insisting that policy is set by the members, 88% of whom want to remain in the EU. Which, as you rightly point out, is anathema to the true hard ‘socialism in one country’ left. Catch 22 for Corbyn, Milne and their cronys.

All this democracy forelock tugging is bullshit of course. The true hard left know that parliamentary democracy is a bourgeois con to be used to seize power and then dumped, believe they have historical inevitability on their side, soon they will be able to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat, purge their enemies and chant ‘four legs good, two legs bad’ endlessly while behaving exactly the same as the last generation of oppressors, except more so.

I fear the statist, authoritarian left just as much as the authoritarian right. Now the libertarian left, which is much lighter on doctrine and dogma, is another matter......

**** it, if I was in charge and came to power I’d be opening up the Gulags quicker than you could say ‘re-education of the masses’

I might save you though, my liberal leftist chum......as long as you embrace our glorious new society

 

[Uber_Hoop]

That’s my point Strolls. I don’t think you can have it both ways.
In my opinion, you have two choices, either a radical Left Wing Labour Party who are willing to implement true Left Wing policies such as leaving the EU and renationalising of certain industries under leaders such as Corbyn and McDonnell, or a more
Liberal ‘slightly left of centre’ Labour Party who are willing to pander to big business and make concessions to the rich, under people such as Watson.
A lot of people were brought back to the Labour Party after Corbyn become leader ‘cos they saw the possibility of the former, and I honestly believe many will leave if they see the latter.

How would I like to be castrated? Chemical or rusty garden shears, you say?

 

[QPR Oslo]

I just don't buy the suggestion that Labour backing a further referendum would cost them countless seats in the North. Overall it would gain them more than it would cost, I reckon. All the Labour votes that went Lib Dem and Green in the EU elections would have stayed if Corbyn had committed to a new referendum.

That's what the polling said. We'll find out soon enough.

 

[Sooperhoop]

To be honest it would be an affront to those who gave their lives if that c*nt was to show up...

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[YorkshireHoopster]

I just don't buy the suggestion that Labour backing a further referendum would cost them countless seats in the North. Overall it would gain them more than it would cost, I reckon. All the Labour votes that went Lib Dem and Green in the EU elections would have stayed if Corbyn had committed to a new referendum.

You ignore the fact that Lib Dems and Greens are clear as to whether they want us in or not. In. Labour was also in the last GE - to achieve Brexit - no ifs and buts. You ignore also all the Labour voters who voted UKIP in the last election in safe Labour seats in spite of their MPs canvassing for Remain. As Labour has a clear majority in all the North Eastern seats (it always has) how comes the electorate voted by up to 70/30 in favour of Brexit in the referendum. That is not down to a statistical anomaly or age of the electorate. The Brexit Party is doing its bit to avoid the loony right image so will do better than UKIP ever did if Brexit is not resolved before the next general election. Defectors from the Tories will not vote Labour. By the way what is Labour's position on Brexit in principle if a referendum is ever called? To me it is crystal clear - it's like trying to read something covered in thick impenetrable (to the eye) mud.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

You ignore the fact that Lib Dems and Greens are clear as to whether they want us in or not. In. Labour was also in the last GE - to achieve Brexit - no ifs and buts. You ignore also all the Labour voters who voted UKIP in the last election in safe Labour seats in spite of their MPs canvassing for Remain. As Labour has a clear majority in all the North Eastern seats (it always has) how comes the electorate voted by up to 70/30 in favour of Brexit in the referendum. That is not down to a statistical anomaly or age of the electorate. The Brexit Party is doing its bit to avoid the loony right image so will do better than UKIP ever did if Brexit is not resolved before the next general election. Defectors from the Tories will not vote Labour. By the way what is Labour's position on Brexit in principle if a referendum is ever called? To me it is crystal clear - it's like trying to read something covered in thick impenetrable (to the eye) mud.

I think they’ve been pretty clear they want a soft Brexit. It’s a hard one for them given it’s a choice between going for something a lot of their voters want and not throwing their most vulnerable voters under a bus.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Theresa May claims she’ll go on 7 June but do you believe her or will she change the date with several extensions?

 

[kiwiqpr]

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[sb_73]

Predictably Brexit Party doing well in early results for EU poll, with Lib Dems second. Labour as well as Tories getting smashed. Turnout up since last time but still only 35% ish, with the biggest rise in Remain areas, compared to a cross EU 51%. Greens doing well across the continent. SNP up 10% in Scotland. The nonentities of Change UK destroyed, they’ll all lose their seats at the next general election.

I’ll refrain from drawing ill informed conclusions.

Thornberry has just said on telly that there should be a second referendum and Labour should campaign to remain. Wonder if she cleared that with the Politburo.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Predictably Brexit Party doing well in early results for EU poll, with Lib Dems second. Labour as well as Tories getting smashed. Turnout up since last time but still only 35% ish, with the biggest rise in Remain areas, compared to a cross EU 51%. Greens doing well across the continent. SNP up 10% in Scotland.

I’ll refrain from drawing ill informed conclusions.

Thornberry has just said on telly that there should be a second referendum and Labour should campaign to remain. Wonder if she cleared that with the Politburo.

Thornberry is another one of those arrogant, nasty, ghastlies.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Predictably Brexit Party doing well in early results for EU poll, with Lib Dems second. Labour as well as Tories getting smashed. Turnout up since last time but still only 35% ish, with the biggest rise in Remain areas, compared to a cross EU 51%. Greens doing well across the continent. SNP up 10% in Scotland.

I’ll refrain from drawing ill informed conclusions.

Thornberry has just said on telly that there should be a second referendum and Labour should campaign to remain. Wonder if she cleared that with the Politburo.

Out of interest, elsewhere do they actually vote based on who might make a good MEP or represents their beliefs or is it also just a way of giving whichever major party you don’t like a kicking?

A few results dripping in from the sort of ****holes you’d expect to vote hugely for Farage and it’s not quite as Brexity as one might have thought.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Predictably Brexit Party doing well in early results for EU poll, with Lib Dems second. Labour as well as Tories getting smashed. Turnout up since last time but still only 35% ish, with the biggest rise in Remain areas, compared to a cross EU 51%. Greens doing well across the continent. SNP up 10% in Scotland. The nonentities of Change UK destroyed, they’ll all lose their seats at the next general election.

I’ll refrain from drawing ill informed conclusions.

Thornberry has just said on telly that there should be a second referendum and Labour should campaign to remain. Wonder if she cleared that with the Politburo.

How anybody could say these incoming results are anything other than a reaffirmation of the desire to leave the EU is beyond me.

Over to you, Stroller, Os, Odie et al...

 

[sb_73]

Out of interest, elsewhere do they actually vote based on who might make a good MEP or represents their beliefs or is it also just a way of giving whichever major party you don’t like a kicking?

A few results dripping in from the sort of ****holes you’d expect to vote hugely for Farage and it’s not quite as Brexity as one might have thought.

If it’s the same as here you vote on a list of parties, not for candidates.

I want to see a result from a strong Remain area.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

How anybody could say these incoming results are anything other than a reaffirmation of the desire to leave the EU is beyond me.

Over to you, Stroller, Os, Odie et al...

What sort of share and turnout for Brexy McBrexface would you consider a reaffirmation?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

What sort of share and turnout for Brexy McBrexface would you consider a reaffirmation?

You tell me, Windy McWindmush

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

You tell me, Windy McWindmush

On a 35% turnout I’d conclude absolutely **** all.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

On a 35% turnout I’d conclude absolutely **** all.

I wouldn’t.

If the majority had seen the light and wanted to make a ‘remain’ statement they’d have turned out in their droves and voted for a ‘remain’ party.

The Namby Pamby Party is the only real choice in this respect, but are miles behind the Brexit Party.

What’s your conclusion? I think the choices are:

(A) Those ‘Remainers’ that cared enough about Brexit turned out and voted accordingly;

(B) ‘Remainers’ didn’t give sufficient a toss about the EU and so couldn’t be arsed to make a statement;

(C) Everybody that voted anything other than for the Brexit Party are ‘Remainers’ so they won;

(D) The Namby Pamby’s are useless bell-ends; or

(E) I’ve drunk too much, you’re my best mate, I love you.