Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Stroller said:
If exposing wrongdoing endangers those that support the wrongdoing, does that make the exposure itself wrong, or are the wrongdoers wronger than the exposers?
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You think Wikileaks does this (took me a while to work out the exact meaning of your post)? If it does it doesn’t do it in a very even handed manner. Not a single leak that would embarrass or endanger Russian interests. Only one, from 2008 showing video of Tibetan dissent which the Chinese wouldn’t like. The Democratic Party leaks during the presidential election campaign were done in collusion with Russia. Of course, Assange would be foolish to have targeted genuine powerful authoritarian regimes, because he wouldn’t be under arrest now if he did, he would be dead.

I see Corbyn has jumped on the wrong bandwagon again with this. Even if a tiny minority of these leaks (they have published literally millions of pages of documents and communications without having read the contents, let alone thought about potential consequences) could be of genuine public interest, they were obtained illegally and its impossible to deny this. Now the laws broken might be wrong, fair enough, but if Assange is really interested in free speech he should be relishing his prospective day in court, rather than having spent years hiding. But this isn’t about free speech, his agenda is the same as Putin’s, disruption of as many western democracies as possible.

It’s a shame that such a creep has headed up this initiative because as I said above, holding the unaccountable to account is a noble objective. But it also requires accountability and responsibility.
 
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sb_73 said:
You think Wikileaks does this (took me a while to work out the exact meaning of your post)? If it does it doesn’t do it in a very even handed manner. Not a single leak that would embarrass or endanger Russian interests. Only one, from 2008 showing video of Tibetan dissent which the Chinese wouldn’t like. The Democratic Party leaks during the presidential election campaign were done in collusion with Russia. Of course, Assange would be foolish to have targeted genuine powerful authoritarian regimes, because he wouldn’t be under arrest now if he did, he would be dead.

I see Corbyn has jumped on the wrong bandwagon again with this. Even if a tiny minority of these leaks (they have published literally millions of pages of documents and communications without having read the contents, let alone thought about potential consequences) could be of genuine public interest, they were obtained illegally and its impossible to deny this. Now the laws broken might be wrong, fair enough, but if Assange is really interested in free speech he should be relishing his prospective day in court, rather than having spent years hiding. But this isn’t about free speech, his agenda is the same as Putin’s, disruption of as many western democracies as possible.

It’s a shame that such a creep has headed up this initiative because as I said above, holding the unaccountable to account is a noble objective. But it also requires accountability and responsibility.
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It was a generalised comment. I have little time for Assange personally, but would instinctively support whistle-blowers in general. Wikileaks is 'not my thing', but breaking laws to expose wrongdoing is justified, it seems to me, if the crimes exposed are of a serious enough nature.
 
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sb_73 said:
You think Wikileaks does this (took me a while to work out the exact meaning of your post)? If it does it doesn’t do it in a very even handed manner. Not a single leak that would embarrass or endanger Russian interests. Only one, from 2008 showing video of Tibetan dissent which the Chinese wouldn’t like. The Democratic Party leaks during the presidential election campaign were done in collusion with Russia. Of course, Assange would be foolish to have targeted genuine powerful authoritarian regimes, because he wouldn’t be under arrest now if he did, he would be dead.

I see Corbyn has jumped on the wrong bandwagon again with this. Even if a tiny minority of these leaks (they have published literally millions of pages of documents and communications without having read the contents, let alone thought about potential consequences) could be of genuine public interest, they were obtained illegally and its impossible to deny this. Now the laws broken might be wrong, fair enough, but if Assange is really interested in free speech he should be relishing his prospective day in court, rather than having spent years hiding. But this isn’t about free speech, his agenda is the same as Putin’s, disruption of as many western democracies as possible.

It’s a shame that such a creep has headed up this initiative because as I said above, holding the unaccountable to account is a noble objective. But it also requires accountability and responsibility.
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Cant say i know enough about what's been leaked or not. I understand national security is important but as we saw with snowden, anyone who the government thinks is a real threat will be chased down and taken away.
 
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BobbyD said:
Cant say i know enough about what's been leaked or not. I understand national security is important but as we saw with snowden, anyone who the government thinks is a real threat will be chased down and taken away.
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Snowden hasn’t been taken away though, he ran away, he’s in Russia. He stole information from his employer and gave it to the press (but not to Assange). It’s worth reading the wiki article on him to get an understanding of his motivations. It was interesting stuff, concerning the level of surveillance we are all under and the huge degree of cooperation between western intelligence agencies. The surprise to me was that this has been going on since the fifties.

In our connected age surveillance is much easier and seems more invasive. But I don’t lose any sleep over it, I just assume that nothing is private and nothing can be private if you use the Internet and a mobile. It’s actually rather comforting, though we will never know how many dreadful events have been averted because of it, or exactly how much it has been abused.

There is a late 20th and early 21st century obsession with personal privacy, at precisely the time when it is most easily compromised. Of course previous generations didn’t have anything like the same concept of individual privacy, it’s only relatively recently that we have begun to have a **** in private.
 
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sb_73 said:
Snowden hasn’t been taken away though, he ran away, he’s in Russia. He stole information from his employer and gave it to the press (but not to Assange). It’s worth reading the wiki article on him to get an understanding of his motivations. It was interesting stuff, concerning the level of surveillance we are all under and the huge degree of cooperation between western intelligence agencies. The surprise to me was that this has been going on since the fifties.

In our connected age surveillance is much easier and seems more invasive. But I don’t lose any sleep over it, I just assume that nothing is private and nothing can be private if you use the Internet and a mobile. It’s actually rather comforting, though we will never know how many dreadful events have been averted because of it, or exactly how much it has been abused.

There is a late 20th and early 21st century obsession with personal privacy, at precisely the time when it is most easily compromised. Of course previous generations didn’t have anything like the same concept of individual privacy, it’s only relatively recently that we have begun to have a **** in private.
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Yes but you know and i know why snowden had to run away. He was deffo going to be tried and called a traitor for it. Hell you only need to see how the guardian journalist who had some of snowdens data was treated by our government

I expect the government to be monitoring but having it confirmed basically let's me know what i can and can't do.

I'm sure terrorism has been averted because of it but I'm pretty sure more nefarious uses of it has also been used.
 
BobbyD said:
Yes but you know and i know why snowden had to run away. He was deffo going to be tried and called a traitor for it. Hell you only need to see how the guardian journalist who had some of snowdens data was treated by our government

I expect the government to be monitoring but having it confirmed basically let's me know what i can and can't do.

I'm sure terrorism has been averted because of it but I'm pretty sure more nefarious uses of it has also been used.
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There is a fine line between traitor and hero. He’s on the traitor side of it from my perspective, but I can understand why some would disagree.

It’s an impossible judgement, again from my perspective, to offset threats avoided against abuses committed.
 
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kiwiqpr said:
Apparently, Graham Brady has said if he receives 10,000 emails demanding Mrs May stands down - he will call for a leadership contest. His email is: [email protected] or [email protected] So please get emailing folks.
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No thanks. He can call all he likes, he can't force a vote of no confidence until December.
And May will ignore it and force her deal to be voted on for the umpteenth time. ​
Tough one for the purists. Vote the deal down and face the wrath of the public for delaying Brexit of any sort until at least 2020 and with an extension period which takes us to 2022 or let your principles slide a bit to get rid of her voluntarily and then try to unravel it briefly but unsuccessfully safe in the knowledge that when they fail they can heap all the blame on to her for selling them out.
 
Billy Vunipola has moved his considerable bulk behind Israel Folau’s opinion that ‘hell awaits’ gay people (and a range of others). I respect their ‘right’ to hold these beliefs, although I don’t respect the contemptible, ignorant and ugly beliefs themselves, and reserve my right to mock and ridicule their opinions. I’m glad they feel compelled to share their stupidity with the world, because too many twats like this hide theirs away or only share them with equally moronic people who think the same as them. Let’s see exactly how many fundamentalist ****ers of all varieties we have to deal with.

What is fun in this scenario is watching stripy tie and blazer wearing rugby administrators dancing round the issue. Here’s what Saracens, Vunipola’s club, said:
"We recognise that people have different belief systems and we expect everyone to be treated equally with respect and humility.
"As representatives and role models, Saracens players have a responsibility not only to themselves but to the club and wider society.
"Billy Vunipola's recent social media posts are inconsistent with this and we take this matter very seriously. It will be handled internally."

Here’s the thing - if an individual’s ‘belief system’ compels them NOT to treat others ‘equally, with respect and humility’ do you, like Sacarens seem to want, have to treat them ‘equally, with respect and humility’. It doesn’t make any ****ing sense does it?

There are also some interesting issues, relevant to a lot of us, around how far your employer should be interested in your political, religious and social opinions.
 
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sb_73 said:
Billy Vunipola has moved his considerable bulk behind Israel Folau’s opinion that ‘hell awaits’ gay people (and a range of others). I respect their ‘right’ to hold these beliefs, although I don’t respect the contemptible, ignorant and ugly beliefs themselves, and reserve my right to mock and ridicule their opinions. I’m glad they feel compelled to share their stupidity with the world, because too many twats like this hide theirs away or only share them with equally moronic people who think the same as them. Let’s see exactly how many fundamentalist ****ers of all varieties we have to deal with.

What is fun in this scenario is watching stripy tie and blazer wearing rugby administrators dancing round the issue. Here’s what Saracens, Vunipola’s club, said:
"We recognise that people have different belief systems and we expect everyone to be treated equally with respect and humility.
"As representatives and role models, Saracens players have a responsibility not only to themselves but to the club and wider society.
"Billy Vunipola's recent social media posts are inconsistent with this and we take this matter very seriously. It will be handled internally."

Here’s the thing - if an individual’s ‘belief system’ compels them NOT to treat others ‘equally, with respect and humility’ do you, like Sacarens seem to want, have to treat them ‘equally, with respect and humility’. It doesn’t make any ****ing sense does it?

There are also some interesting issues, relevant to a lot of us, around how far your employer should be interested in your political, religious and social opinions.
Click to expand...

You have to respect his religion, though.

Wait a minute, no you don't.
 
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Guy Verhofstadt‏Verified account@guyverhofstadt Mar 1
Follow Follow @guyverhofstadt
Let’s create a single Euro-African economic area.
It would have an enormous potential that remains untapped:
1.5 billion consumers,
20 trillion in value,
able to rival with China.
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