Off Topic The Politics Thread

[bobmid]

No, my point is they are all freaks but sadly he, Adam Boulton needed to put in his remainer 'digs'.

Just in..

A man has been arrested trying to get into Parliament grounds. He was tasered. Armed police have moved into where demonstrators are.

You see what happens when people think the democracy is taken away from them. If we don't Brexit there will be mayhem and it won't be from old 'Gammons" but from people intent on causing problems.

It will be a fine example to set to the ever growing problem of youth violence wouldn't you say.....not

 

[bobmid]

I suppose some people thrive on mayhem and violence.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Right I'm with you now. The wee lass on the radio only wanted to stop immigration bless her while the other wanted less concessions on a deal. My point I'm trying to get around my head is that out of 17 odd million voters for leave, I wonder how many wanted a deal, how many wanted a different deal, how many wanted a different deal to that and how many were like yourself.

I suspect most wanted 100% out of the EU on the best terms that our government could negotiate.

I strongly doubt that many, if anyone, voted Leave in the hope that we would stay in large parts of it.

 

[ELLERS]

Look at Juncker shaking and moaning... he looks half dead. May is getting nothing out of this lot

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[danishqp]

Right I'm with you now. The wee lass on the radio only wanted to stop immigration bless her while the other wanted less concessions on a deal. My point I'm trying to get around my head is that out of 17 odd million voters for leave, I wonder how many wanted a deal, how many wanted a different deal, how many wanted a different deal to that and how many were like yourself.

Bob, how many voted to stay but only because they did not trust their own politicos?
How many, have no faith in UK politicians and EU politicians?
How many voted to stay because the human default position is to fear the unknown?
I'm in danger of raising Godot here - but, can you honestly tell me what it has done to Spain, Portugal and Greece to stay in the EU?

My name is Wolfgang, I have expensive tastes with a wallet to match, is it fair that I force Luigi, Kyrios and Manuel to eat at the same restaturant of my choice every evening?
Should I care that they are paying on their credit cards every night, whilst I pay cash?
Should I not care about their families at home, especially their young children who need educating?

Maybe, I should have been prepared to eat kebabs, pasta and tapas a few nights instead of the 2 Michellin starred fayre?

Same question to you as to Stroller - Are you content with the disparites in wealth and opportunities that now exist in the UK?
Should this situation morally change?

 

[ELLERS]

I suspect most wanted 100% out of the EU on the best terms that our government could negotiate.

I strongly doubt that many, if anyone, voted Leave in the hope that we would stay in large parts of it.

That is what remainers cannot understand. We voted to leave and that meant leave. We all know that may has tried to please everyone but she really should have worried about the brexit result first then tried to heal the rest.

 

[sb_73]

Often in agreement with you, but we diverge here. The EU has a very clear and transparent set of laws about full membership and membership of constituent organisations (eg Single Market). We've all seen the slide where they outline the options for the UK. Their negotiating red lines have been transparently published on their website which they have consistently stood by.

We're choosing to leave their club. As such, the onus is entirely on us to choose from the various models they operate or to try and establish an alternative, be that no deal, May's deal, or something else.

I simply don't see why any EU member or official, if I put myself in their shoes, would look to give the UK a bespoke deal as it would open all sorts of complications.

The (perhaps overly simplistic) analogy would be for me leaving a gym and not wanting to pay for peak membership, or off peak membership, but demanding to agree some of the benefits of peak membership, for a smaller fee than off peak membership. I can't see why it's the gyms responsibility to work out a (public) solution for me, even if I'm a large customer, as it could destroy their business model.

I think the responsibility for coming up with a solution that works is squarely with the UK. Being incapable to do so isnti a good enough excuse imo.

Laws, rules etc are made by humans for the benefit of humans. They can be changed for the benefit of humans. If the EU wants to stop Ireland going down the ****ter they better get a move on, whatever the rules say about UK membership.

Why it’s not about turns imo
We have requested to leave a club by the rules we knew about. The EU will quickly support its member being Ireland first

I have seen plenty they have been far superior to us over Brexit ... we are the problem we have always been the problem. I have to agree with my European friends on this from the outside looking in it’s a real mess ... to suddenly say ok you have a go is daft upon daft imo

We have proven we are unable to take responsibility A 11th hour blame culture is the English way. The EU has other business to do yet we think again it’s all about us

see the above. If the EU are serious about looking after Ireland, it’s their shout. Immaterial how **** the UK is or isn’t. It’s sad that our best bargaining counter is throwing another country under the bus, but that’s the way it is. If the EU has the ability to clear up the mess, it should do it.

It's not brinkmanship Stroller - you need to have a credible alternative that your counterpart believes you are willing to invoke - it's called a BATNA.
The problem throughout this process has been that the EU can clearly see that the UK has had no clue or unity in what their BATNA is.
It has simply been able to sit back and let UK politics implode - this is its MO, it's done this in Greece, Portugal, Spain and to a certain extent Italy.
Can you tell me what would be so reckless in taking the UK's trading relationship with the EU to WTO rules?
I can tell you that Business is extremely handy and resourceful at quickly working things out.
The UK voted to leave the EU - I, as an outsider and living in Denmark did not want this to paly out but I could see the disparities in wealth and opportunity that had and have developed over the past 15 years.
If you think this did not need reversing, then you are mistaken. could it have happened by working within the EU? Possibly, but it never did and the people of the UK got tired of it. Rest assured that the majority of the 48% that voted to stay in the EU were not voting because they loved the EU - it was mostly because they looked at the worst case scenario being handled by their politicos - they may well have been right and almost up there with the Spaniards, Greeks etc.

I believed that the UK would be able to deliver this much needed punch to the EU - it so obvioulsly has been unable to, up to now.
However, you get opportunities in life to take advantage of timing - Merkel took it with the boy washed ashore, Trump took it when Christie destroyed Rubio and there are plenty others in history. Right now, Europe is almost as tired as the UK on Brexit, it has a strong 20% (polls in EU countries over the past 2 years) anti EU and a probable very high number of apathetic persons (no poll, just like to talk to people).

Stroller, brinkmanship is going in with no plan, no BATNA, just hoping that the other side will play fair - in fact, I would not call that brinkmanship, if I played that game I would be rightly fired. Fired for laziness, incompetence and without any strategy.
WTO will be tough on many, it will also provide for "new Industries" - it will also force people to come to the table with far more knowledge of what's at stake.

Again, this scenario would not be as good as some would think or as bad as others would believe. It would however move the needle and concentrate minds.

Stroller, you can't think that the disparity in wealth and opportunity in the magnificent UK is an acceptable thing? As a Liberal that I know you are, you cannot accept that, surely?
And, being blessed by living in the country that everyone else wants to be - I'm telling ya, paying 68% tax is a good thing, having free education that actually delivers for all is a brilliant thing, free half decent health care could be better - but you have to work at it, cross party approaches, not this need for power bullshit.
The UK might just be about to smash this 2 party power system that was appropriate for the Industrial Revolution, but not for this one!!

Take the WTO for now, it's the starting point of this negotiation.

Negotiation 101. You need experience and balls to carry through on BATNA though, and obviously our political/civil servant negotiating team lacked both. As well as a BATNA.

 

[Staines R's]

Do none of you work? X

I sometimes think the same Woody, I can only give quick answers between jobs

 

[bobmid]

Bob, how many voted to stay but only because they did not trust their own politicos?
How many, have no faith in UK politicians and EU politicians?
How many voted to stay because the human default position is to fear the unknown?
I'm in danger of raising Godot here - but, can you honestly tell me what it has done to Spain, Portugal and Greece to stay in the EU?

My name is Wolfgang, I have expensive tastes with a wallet to match, is it fair that I force Luigi, Kyrios and Manuel to eat at the same restaturant of my choice every evening?
Should I care that they are paying on their credit cards every night, whilst I pay cash?
Should I not care about their families at home, especially their young children who need educating?

Maybe, I should have been prepared to eat kebabs, pasta and tapas a few nights instead of the 2 Michellin starred fayre?

Same question to you as to Stroller - Are you content with the disparites in wealth and opportunities that now exist in the UK?
Should this situation morally change?

Oh I'm not content with them in the slightest. Will that suddenly change when/if we leave the EU and if so I'm really intrigued as to how

 

[danishqp]

Oh I'm not content with them in the slightest. Will that suddenly change when/if we leave the EU and if so I'm really intrigued as to how

It may do - in regards to historical tribal politics - the consensus of opinion (appears to my eye) to be against.
This opens up for a new dawn where long term, fair sustainable politics can come in to play.
The change will/can come as the aftershock of leaving.
Staying? More of the same please Sir.

Could it have been done from within? Possibly, but it didn't - time for a change, if anyone can show the way, the 5th alrgest economy might be the one to do it.
Do we really want the situation where the most Liberal country in the World has now become ripe for Right Wing pickings?
Sweden, in case you were wondering...

 

[sb_73]

This might have been posted before, but Andy Serkis is a genius, so worth seeing again....

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[Woodyhoopleson]

I sometimes think the same Woody, I can only give quick answers between jobs

Best you concentrate on what you're doing mate.

 

[bobmid]

It may do - in regards to historical tribal politics - the consensus of opinion (appears to my eye) to be against.
This opens up for a new dawn where long term, fair sustainable politics can come in to play.
The change will/can come as the aftershock of leaving.
Staying? More of the same please Sir.

Could it have been done from within? Possibly, but it didn't - time for a change, if anyone can show the way, the 5th alrgest economy might be the one to do it.
Do we really want the situation where the most Liberal country in the World has now become ripe for Right Wing pickings?
Sweden, in case you were wondering...

Sweden's major issues due to right wing is their Muslim population turning whole cities into ghettos not really much to do with the EU. As for the Wolfgang analogy, surely if his guests couldn't afford to pay then they wouldn't have gone for a meal. I certainly don't want to base my future on a 'may be'

 

[Stroller]

It's not brinkmanship Stroller - you need to have a credible alternative that your counterpart believes you are willing to invoke - it's called a BATNA.
The problem throughout this process has been that the EU can clearly see that the UK has had no clue or unity in what their BATNA is.
It has simply been able to sit back and let UK politics implode - this is its MO, it's done this in Greece, Portugal, Spain and to a certain extent Italy.
Can you tell me what would be so reckless in taking the UK's trading relationship with the EU to WTO rules?
I can tell you that Business is extremely handy and resourceful at quickly working things out.
The UK voted to leave the EU - I, as an outsider and living in Denmark did not want this to paly out but I could see the disparities in wealth and opportunity that had and have developed over the past 15 years.
If you think this did not need reversing, then you are mistaken. could it have happened by working within the EU? Possibly, but it never did and the people of the UK got tired of it. Rest assured that the majority of the 48% that voted to stay in the EU were not voting because they loved the EU - it was mostly because they looked at the worst case scenario being handled by their politicos - they may well have been right and almost up there with the Spaniards, Greeks etc.

I believed that the UK would be able to deliver this much needed punch to the EU - it so obvioulsly has been unable to, up to now.
However, you get opportunities in life to take advantage of timing - Merkel took it with the boy washed ashore, Trump took it when Christie destroyed Rubio and there are plenty others in history. Right now, Europe is almost as tired as the UK on Brexit, it has a strong 20% (polls in EU countries over the past 2 years) anti EU and a probable very high number of apathetic persons (no poll, just like to talk to people).

Stroller, brinkmanship is going in with no plan, no BATNA, just hoping that the other side will play fair - in fact, I would not call that brinkmanship, if I played that game I would be rightly fired. Fired for laziness, incompetence and without any strategy.
WTO will be tough on many, it will also provide for "new Industries" - it will also force people to come to the table with far more knowledge of what's at stake.

Again, this scenario would not be as good as some would think or as bad as others would believe. It would however move the needle and concentrate minds.

Stroller, you can't think that the disparity in wealth and opportunity in the magnificent UK is an acceptable thing? As a Liberal that I know you are, you cannot accept that, surely?
And, being blessed by living in the country that everyone else wants to be - I'm telling ya, paying 68% tax is a good thing, having free education that actually delivers for all is a brilliant thing, free half decent health care could be better - but you have to work at it, cross party approaches, not this need for power bullshit.
The UK might just be about to smash this 2 party power system that was appropriate for the Industrial Revolution, but not for this one!!

Take the WTO for now, it's the starting point of this negotiation.

I'll have to admit to having to look up BATNA, Danish. Having done so, it seems to me that WTO is not a 'best' alternative to a negotiated agreement, it's the only one, and it's not attractive. If WTO was an attractive, or even acceptable outcome, nations around the world wouldn't be so desperately keen to make their own free trade agreements would they? As far as I'm aware, on leaving we'd be the only nation in the world trading 100% on WTO rules.

We knew the EU's red lines before we started, but May painted her own ones that made the deal that she has come back with almost inevitable, and acceptable to hardly anyone. Goldie's assertion that both sides in the referendum campaign agreed that Brexit meant leaving every single EU institution is a convenient and deliberate over-simplification. Yes, Cameron and Osborne stated that it would mean just that, but that was just part of Remain's 'project fear'. They knew full well it wasn't necessarily so. Similarly, many on the Leave side were cynically talking up soft options such as Norway in order to seduce those that wanted to give the government a kick, but without wanting to sever all EU ties. We deserved better, and May should have come up with a compromise offer that didn't totally exclude the 48%.

As to the UK's disparity in wealth and opportunity, of course I don't accept that, and I fervently hope for a Labour government that will properly tackle it. I believe a Corbyn/McDonnell administration would do just that, but I guess you are telling me that it can't happen whilst we are still in the EU. I don't see why that should be the case, but if it was true, and I had to choose between staying in the EU and a radical Labour government, I'd go for the latter.

 

[DT’s Socks]

If it isn't the euro loving freaks it's the bloody brexit freaks. Can't win eh

Good to see the Brexiteer on the street at last
Something to aim for

 

[DT’s Socks]

Right I'm with you now. The wee lass on the radio only wanted to stop immigration bless her while the other wanted less concessions on a deal. My point I'm trying to get around my head is that out of 17 odd million voters for leave, I wonder how many wanted a deal, how many wanted a different deal, how many wanted a different deal to that and how many were like yourself.

Bang on

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

Laws, rules etc are made by humans for the benefit of humans. They can be changed for the benefit of humans. If the EU wants to stop Ireland going down the ****ter they better get a move on, whatever the rules say about UK membership.

see the above. If the EU are serious about looking after Ireland, it’s their shout. Immaterial how **** the UK is or isn’t. It’s sad that our best bargaining counter is throwing another country under the bus, but that’s the way it is. If the EU has the ability to clear up the mess, it should do it.

Negotiation 101. You need experience and balls to carry through on BATNA though, and obviously our political/civil servant negotiating team lacked both. As well as a BATNA.

Laws/rules certainly can be changed, but they must be applied consistently once changed, otherwise they become entirely without meaning. And they won't want to risk everyone having their cake and eating it, as has been made clear many times. Hence the EU staying openly and clearly to their four fundamental principles.

I don't see the "we'll take Ireland down with us" argument as one which will manage to get to EU to bend on that - they know we will end up more damaged, in both economy and reputation, and blink first.

It's why I'd have settled for May's deal - ideally with greater reassurance on the backstop.

Obviously very hard to know what will happen - but increasingly looking like no deal vs 2nd ref. My guess (and it is just that) is that we will end up having a second vote (not what I'd choose) and that leave will win again. And then we start again

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

I'll have to admit to having to look up BATNA, Danish. Having done so, it seems to me that WTO is not a 'best' alternative to a negotiated agreement, it's the only one, and it's not attractive. If WTO was an attractive, or even acceptable outcome, nations around the world wouldn't be so desperately keen to make their own free trade agreements would they? As far as I'm aware, on leaving we'd be the only nation in the world trading 100% on WTO rules.

We knew the EU's red lines before we started, but May painted her own ones that made the deal that she has come back with almost inevitable, and acceptable to hardly anyone. Goldie's assertion that both sides in the referendum campaign agreed that Brexit meant leaving every single EU institution is a convenient and deliberate over-simplification. Yes, Cameron and Osborne stated that it would mean just that, but that was just part of Remain's 'project fear'. They knew full well it wasn't necessarily so. Similarly, many on the Leave side were cynically talking up soft options such as Norway in order to seduce those that wanted to give the government a kick, but without wanting to sever all EU ties. We deserved better, and May should have come up with a compromise offer that didn't totally exclude the 48%.

As to the UK's disparity in wealth and opportunity, of course I don't accept that, and I fervently hope for a Labour government that will properly tackle it. I believe a Corbyn/McDonnell administration would do just that, but I guess you are telling me that it can't happen whilst we are still in the EU. I don't see why that should be the case, but if it was true, and I had to choose between staying in the EU and a radical Labour government, I'd go for the latter.

Does anyone here know if WTO rules are automatically applied upon leaving? I have a hazy memory of reading somewhere about needing to negotiate entry to WTO / WTO terms but could be quite wrong. Any decent links on this topic?

 

[DT’s Socks]

Where and at what point do you reach the conclusion that the Corrupt 4th Reich oops the corrupt EU has conducted itself fairly and how on this earth do you think that a bunch of unelected nincompoops who failed as politicians in their own countries are real politicians, you are nothing but a deluded europhile clown who has fallen hook line and sinker into their lies and deception and their badly disguised desire for a United States of Europe and to hell with the consequences for your own country and your adopted country, you have seen the riots in France this last few weeks and do NOT say it’s been hyped by the bbc etc, I watch euro news, France 24, Russia today Al Jazeera etc and what is posted online and this is all to do with The German puppet Macron and his blind following of the doctrine from Brussels and Berlin to turn France into a slave nation.
And I can assure you what happened in France will NOT compare to what will happen here if democracy is denied and Brexit is stopped (which it can’t be, as it is passed into legislative law),
Stop praising the fools in Brussels trying to destroy your nation of birth, wake up and smell the coffee.

I can assure you I hope to see you on the battlefield
What you watch is what?
What I see with my own eyes in more credible

You are the exactly the very person that correction

Your viewpoint is thankfully a minority

Our Government is the corrupt one you very stupid person

 

[danishqp]

Sweden's major issues due to right wing is their Muslim population turning whole cities into ghettos not really much to do with the EU. As for the Wolfgang analogy, surely if his guests couldn't afford to pay then they wouldn't have gone for a meal. I certainly don't want to base my future on a 'may be'

You're quite right Bob - they are, and that was brought about by fullfilling EU quotas to the letter.
Thereafter, once the initial families were in, the rest followed. But heh, Sweden would have let them in anyway if it weren't for the EU, or so you insinuate.
Interesting that you think Wolfgang's guests wouldn't have gone for the meal - well, ask Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal what they were faced with when it was time to pay the bills? They have been left in almost perpetual ruin, generations lost. They didn't want to keep going to those restaurants but were made to as Wolfgang owned the restaurant and the banks they owed the money to.
You see, Wolfgang is Germany, as you quite easily can deduce.

If all you sell is oranges, taramasalata, olive oil, Metaxa, tourism, Barolo, Fiat, Seat, Brunello di Montelcino, Sherry, tomatoes - how could you ever trade on the same terms as someone that sells Mercedes, BMW, Audi,Volkswagen, Siemens, Bosch, SAP, DHL, Knorr, Miele?

Can you see the potential flaw? Do you think that was or is fair?
You seem a really fair and grounded person - keep away from the fright, nightmare scenario that sells, what has made the EU so fantastic apart from it becoming easier to travel on holidays to wonderful cities?
Everything else, the ability to move and live in other countires was always there - trade was always there - so genuine question, as someone who left the UK for DK - what has been so briliant about the EU that everyone now is frightened at leaving?