Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Often in agreement with you, but we diverge here. The EU has a very clear and transparent set of laws about full membership and membership of constituent organisations (eg Single Market). We've all seen the slide where they outline the options for the UK. Their negotiating red lines have been transparently published on their website which they have consistently stood by.
We're choosing to leave their club. As such, the onus is entirely on us to choose from the various models they operate or to try and establish an alternative, be that no deal, May's deal, or something else.
I simply don't see why any EU member or official, if I put myself in their shoes, would look to give the UK a bespoke deal as it would open all sorts of complications.
The (perhaps overly simplistic) analogy would be for me leaving a gym and not wanting to pay for peak membership, or off peak membership, but demanding to agree some of the benefits of peak membership, for a smaller fee than off peak membership. I can't see why it's the gyms responsibility to work out a (public) solution for me, even if I'm a large customer, as it could destroy their business model.
I think the responsibility for coming up with a solution that works is squarely with the UK. Being incapable to do so isnti a good enough excuse imo.
Great post, Danish. I would add so far as Spain is concerned, that when Catalonian leaders pressed for independence and were tracked down by Madrid, arrested and jailed, the EU stood on and watched with no criticism whatsoever of the Spanish government.
If the UK had pressed on for WTO from the beginning, and made talks with the EU secondary, it would have got a much better deal than the mess May came back with. She's been the problem because she has no commercial experience and is not a hard nosed negotiator. It's not too late for a new UK prime minister to put this straight, but I can understand the EU's frustration that they thought they were dealing with a weak leader who overrode her Brexit ministers because she had the authority to bind her country, when in fact she was a weak leader who was exceeding her authority and now the EU finds it has little for two years work.
Like you, I've heard nothing to suggest that, given the right preparations, WTO will not work. Industry has been preparing for that for some time.
Why it’s not about turns imo
We have requested to leave a club by the rules we knew about. The EU will quickly support its member being Ireland first
I have seen plenty they have been far superior to us over Brexit ... we are the problem we have always been the problem. I have to agree with my European friends on this from the outside looking in it’s a real mess ... to suddenly say ok you have a go is daft upon daft imo
We have proven we are unable to take responsibility A 11th hour blame culture is the English way. The EU has other business to do yet we think again it’s all about us
Where and at what point do you reach the conclusion that the Corrupt 4th Reich oops the corrupt EU has conducted itself fairly and how on this earth do you think that a bunch of unelected nincompoops who failed as politicians in their own countries are real politicians, you are nothing but a deluded europhile clown who has fallen hook line and sinker into their lies and deception and their badly disguised desire for a United States of Europe and to hell with the consequences for your own country and your adopted country, you have seen the riots in France this last few weeks and do NOT say it’s been hyped by the bbc etc, I watch euro news, France 24, Russia today Al Jazeera etc and what is posted online and this is all to do with The German puppet Macron and his blind following of the doctrine from Brussels and Berlin to turn France into a slave nation.
And I can assure you what happened in France will NOT compare to what will happen here if democracy is denied and Brexit is stopped (which it can’t be, as it is passed into legislative law),
Stop praising the fools in Brussels trying to destroy your nation of birth, wake up and smell the coffee.
I've never seen anyone on this board that relishes WTO or doesn't think that a good deal with the EU is preferable. But, absent any rethink by the EU, it's simply the most effective way of delivering Brexit.
Goldy, did you vote leave? And if so was it to leave on WTO with no deal?
Yes, I voted Leave, Bob. It was on the basis that leave meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union, pursuant to statements made by all the senior members of the Leave and Remain campaigns. I hoped that good sense would mean that some accommodation would be reached between the UK and the EU but I never relied on that. There was no guarantee of a deal. What matters to me is that we become an independent country again. I've always been pro Europe, but I don't want to be part of an increasingly federal EU. I was much more comfortable with the decent trading arrangements that the Common Market delivered.
Interesting... On Sky Adam Boulton has just finished talking to more remainers and at the end apologised and thanked them for "Putting up with the shouting from these idiots down there". Funnily it's the first time I have heard them shout "Brexit now"! All week the 'Eurolovingfreaks' have done worse and they are "entailed to do that" as one presenter said recently.
So leaving the customs union and single market is basically like a no deal, am i correct in thinking that? So at no point did a deal to leave enter your thoughts?
Yep in all fairness you've said that from day one that's why I understand your anger. I may totally disagree with you but understand your stance
Thanks mate.
Whilst I readily concede that I have been very outspoken on this issue, it really pisses me off when people lie about things I've said in order to try to get their point across.
I have definitely softened my position as the awful split in our country became more evident.
However, if the choice now is May's deal or WTO then it's the latter for me.
Tragic really, as it all could have been handled so much better. No point going over all that again though.
I only ask Goldy as (I'm going to do an Ellers here) I was listening to leave voters on the wireless today saying Mays deal wasn't the deal they voted for. Some wanted a different deal to others and some wanted what yourself and Col wanted.
Yes, I hoped sense would prevail and an accommodation ( like a free trade agreement) would be reached that would benefit both the UK and the EU, that was better than WTO but would not restrict the UK entering trading arrangements around the world (which membership of the Customs Union does) and would not force the UK to take virtually unlimited immigration from the EU (which membership of the Single Market does)
No, my point is they are all freaks but sadly he, Adam Boulton needed to put in his remainer 'digs'.
Just in..
A man has been arrested trying to get into Parliament grounds. He was tasered. Armed police have moved into where demonstrators are.
You see what happens when people think their democracy is taken away from them. If we don't Brexit there will be mayhem and it won't be from old 'Gammons" but from people intent on causing problems.
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It's not brinkmanship Stroller - you need to have a credible alternative that your counterpart believes you are willing to invoke - it's called a BATNA.
The problem throughout this process has been that the EU can clearly see that the UK has had no clue or unity in what their BATNA is.
It has simply been able to sit back and let UK politics implode - this is its MO, it's done this in Greece, Portugal, Spain and to a certain extent Italy.
Can you tell me what would be so reckless in taking the UK's trading relationship with the EU to WTO rules?
I can tell you that Business is extremely handy and resourceful at quickly working things out.
The UK voted to leave the EU - I, as an outsider and living in Denmark did not want this to paly out but I could see the disparities in wealth and opportunity that had and have developed over the past 15 years.
If you think this did not need reversing, then you are mistaken. could it have happened by working within the EU? Possibly, but it never did and the people of the UK got tired of it. Rest assured that the majority of the 48% that voted to stay in the EU were not voting because they loved the EU - it was mostly because they looked at the worst case scenario being handled by their politicos - they may well have been right and almost up there with the Spaniards, Greeks etc.
I believed that the UK would be able to deliver this much needed punch to the EU - it so obvioulsly has been unable to, up to now.
However, you get opportunities in life to take advantage of timing - Merkel took it with the boy washed ashore, Trump took it when Christie destroyed Rubio and there are plenty others in history. Right now, Europe is almost as tired as the UK on Brexit, it has a strong 20% (polls in EU countries over the past 2 years) anti EU and a probable very high number of apathetic persons (no poll, just like to talk to people).
Stroller, brinkmanship is going in with no plan, no BATNA, just hoping that the other side will play fair - in fact, I would not call that brinkmanship, if I played that game I would be rightly fired. Fired for laziness, incompetence and without any strategy.
WTO will be tough on many, it will also provide for "new Industries" - it will also force people to come to the table with far more knowledge of what's at stake.
Again, this scenario would not be as good as some would think or as bad as others would believe. It would however move the needle and concentrate minds.
Stroller, you can't think that the disparity in wealth and opportunity in the magnificent UK is an acceptable thing? As a Liberal that I know you are, you cannot accept that, surely?
And, being blessed by living in the country that everyone else wants to be - I'm telling ya, paying 68% tax is a good thing, having free education that actually delivers for all is a brilliant thing, free half decent health care could be better - but you have to work at it, cross party approaches, not this need for power bullshit.
The UK might just be about to smash this 2 party power system that was appropriate for the Industrial Revolution, but not for this one!!
Take the WTO for now, it's the starting point of this negotiation.
Right I'm with you now. The wee lass on the radio only wanted to stop immigration bless her while the other wanted less concessions on a deal. My point I'm trying to get around my head is that out of 17 odd million voters for leave, I wonder how many wanted a deal, how many wanted a different deal, how many wanted a different deal to that and how many were like yourself.